Proverbs 16:24 (Berean Study Bible) “Pleasant words are a honeycomb, Sweet to the soul and health to the body.”

**Transcription Below**

Genesis 2:24 (NKJV) “Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.”

Philippians 2:4 (NIV) “Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.”

Annie Chapman is the author of “The Mother-in-Law Dance: Can Two Women Love the Same Man and Still Get Along?” In addition to being an author of many books,Annie is wife to Steve, mother to 2 adult children, and grandmother to 6. Her perspective as both a mother-in-law and daughter-in-law brings unique clarity to this discussion.

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The Mother-in-Law Dance: Can Two Women Love the Same Man and Still Get Along? By Annie Chapman

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: Hey everyone! Today's episode is brought to you by one of my favorite brands in Central Illinois, Leman Property Management. With over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton, they can find the perfect spot for you. Check them out at midwestshelters.com or like them on Facebook by searching Leman, L-E-M-A-N, Property Management Company. Thanks for sponsoring today's episode.

Today I get to interview Annie Chapman. She built her career with her husband as a singer and speaker. Additionally, Annie is an author. She is married to Steve, mother to two adult children, and grandmother to six.

The book that we're going to focus on today is one that Annie has written, titled The Mother-in-Law Dance. Here's our chat. [00:01:21]

Welcome, Annie.

Annie Chapman: Well, hello, Laura. I'm glad to be with you today.

Laura Dugger: It is such an honor to host you today. Can you start us off by telling us about your background and your reason for writing this book?

Annie Chapman: Well, I've written a lot of books, but this was really a labor of love and fun because I am both a mother-in-law and a daughter-in-law. I've been a mother-in-law for 18 years, a daughter-in-law going on 44 years, and have lots of friends that have mother-in-law, daughter-in-law issues.

So I wanted to do something to address that and to be an encouragement because I think this relationship between a mother-in-law and a daughter-in-law is so important. For one reason, it's that prize in between. It's the man.

I call the book The Mother-in-Law Dance, but the subtitle is probably more important than anything, because it asks the question, Can Two Women Love the Same Man and Still Get Along? I believe that the answer is yes, but not without a lot of work and a lot of humility and servant's heart on both sides. [00:02:34]

Laura Dugger: Well, we would love to hear more about the foundation of this book. What is your theology on role models for the mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship?

Annie Chapman: Well, there's actually two sections of scripture I found that really deal with the mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship. One, of course, we're all familiar with, Naomi and Ruth and the beautiful relationship that they had that started off really rocky in that Naomi was a Jewish mother, probably, we believe, came from a wealthy family and had their two sons.

They were from Bethlehem, but they had moved to Moab because of a famine. And so they were able to escape the poverty that they were in and go to someplace that was more conducive to living. They had the money to go, so we believe that they were more on a wealthy side.

Then you have poor Naomi's sons. She would have loved for them to have married good Jewish girls, I'm sure. But they chose their wives from Moab and ended up with Ruth being a part of her family. [00:03:44] And so it started out sad because, of course, the sons and the husband died.

At that beautiful declaration of love, we even had at our wedding, and many people do, "Don't make me leave. Wherever you live, I'll live; wherever you die, I'll die and let nothing separate us." That beautiful declaration of love that was between a mother-in-law and a daughter-in-law who didn't have a whole lot in common.

The mother-in-law actually, when she came back to Bethlehem, they called her Naomi and she said, "No, I want to change my name because I'm bitter of soul" because she had lost so much.

So you think about Ruth trying to love maybe this prickly woman who had a lot of disappointments in her life and yet their love between them extended to the place where Ruth was included in the genealogy of Jesus the Christ. [00:04:43]

The second one that I really didn't notice when I wrote the book was between Rebecca and the daughters-in-law, plural, of Esau. They were the Hittite women. And she said to her husband, "Isaac, if Jacob marries women like this, I don't want to live any longer."

So you can see the extremes of the mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship, even in the scriptures of one saying, "Wherever you die, I'm going to be buried," and the other one says, "I want to die if you stay in my life."

Laura Dugger: That's incredible. I've never thought of it that way of those two. Thanks for highlighting it. Does this look different for mothers of sons and mothers of daughters?

Annie Chapman: Oh, it's completely different. When I wrote the book, I did surveys all across the country and then I had my daughter actually compile the data off the surveys. My daughter's friends knew she was working on this project with me. [00:05:41] One of the girls said, "Why is it so much harder for my mom to let go of my brother than it is for her to let go of me?" Because she could see the conflict in the mother-in-law and the daughter-in-law in their family.

And my daughter asked me, and I said, "That is so simple. The mother never lets go of her daughter, but she has to let go of her son." It is the biblical mandate where it says, "A man shall," not should, not will, not maybe, "a man shall leave his mother and father and cling to his wife and the two shall become one."

And that marriage is such a mystery. It's even compared to Christ and the bride, Jesus, and His bride, the church. It's such a spiritual state that the scripture says he has to leave his mom and dad so he can become the husband to this woman and their marriage can be that picture of Christ and the bride. [00:06:46]

There's an old poem: A daughter is a daughter all of her life. A son is a son until he takes a wife. As sad as that seems to me as a mother, as a daughter-in-law, I see that that is really important and imperative that that be the case. And God has arranged it such.

Laura Dugger: I love how you relate everything back to what the Bible says. So, biblically speaking, who is called to lead this relationship between the mother-in-law and the daughter-in-law?

Annie Chapman: Well, I do call this a dance. And I call it the mother-in-law dance for a very good reason, because in a way, we are dance partners that did not choose each other. The mother-in-law and the daughter-in-law did not choose each other. They were chosen for each other.

Even the very word mother-in-law means the law has declared that these two women are now mother and daughter. That sometimes is a really good fit. Sometimes it's an easy relationship. They just ease into it. It's all good. But sometimes it's rough as a cob. [00:08:00]

In the analogy of dancing, you think, okay, two people are put out on a floor and they're told to dance. Sometimes you step on toes, sometimes it looks really awkward, sometimes it's not very pretty, but it's a dance nonetheless, and it's a very fragile, fragile dance.

When I was doing the survey, I asked the question, tell me something that's been difficult for you as a daughter-in-law. Well, this woman just immediately came to her... she had her answer. She said, "30 years ago," now you imagine right on the tip of her tongue, "30 years ago at my wedding, I overheard my mother-in-law telling her sister that I looked fat in my wedding gown." Okay, there's 30 years of hurt feelings and grudge.

Now, if this was two men that got offended 30 years ago, they take it out in the yard, they duke it out, they shake hands and it's over. [00:09:02] Women, they will carry that grudge to the grave." And she did. She was still hurt and angry after 30 years because her mother-in-law had said something very unkind. That's that dance that is so fragile. That in itself is another reason I wanted to write this book.

I'll tell you the story that was the genesis of this book. Talking to a friend. We saw each other at the airport. We were both coming back from trips. I said, "What you been doing?" She said, "Well, we went out to see my son and his wife 1,500 miles, long ways away." They had moved into a new house, so they went out to see everybody.

Been six months. They walked into the house, the house is still full of boxes, the bed was not made. The sheets were dirty. Her son was trying to change the bed. No food prepared. Her son was scavenging through the freezer trying to find a frozen pizza to feed his parents. No preparation. [00:10:06]

Then the mother-in-law found out that the daughter-in-law was going to a function at church that was designed for mothers and daughters. She just thought, "Okay, now I'm gonna be invited to this function. I'm gonna get to know my daughter-in-law a little better. We're gonna have a fun evening.

The day came, no invitation. The daughter-in-law gets dressed, she leaves the mother-in-law standing there, never even invited her. The mother-in-law locks herself in the bedroom and starts crying all evening. The son is wringing his hands saying, "What's wrong with mom?" The mother-in-law comes out and says, "I will never ever come back here again."

She was relaying this story to me, and I thought, "Look at that. Who knows if ever this relationship will ever be repaired for a thoughtless..." That was rude of the daughter-in-law, but boy, did that mother-in-law take it to heart." [00:11:03] And I thought, "This is what people live with. The mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship is so fragile but so important, I wanted to help."

Laura Dugger: That's so sad to hear how relationships can be tainted over words. So biblically, who is called to lead this relationship?

Annie Chapman: I have to say that the mother is the one to lead, and she leads by backing off. In the book, I wrote a section that to me kind of depicts what goes on actually on the wedding day. And if I may, I'll read this. "The candles are lit. The room glows with a soft yellow hue. The groom, the pastor, and the wedding party are in place at the altar.

As all eyes eagerly watched the closed door at the chapel's entrance, suddenly the air is changed from the sweet stillness of anticipation to the first notes of the beautiful music chosen for the wedding processional. [00:12:02]

As the doors swing open, the bride's heart races at the sound of the melodic cue to make the long-awaited slow walk down the aisle of matrimony. But as the song plays, the lovely bride does not realize that she is not the only lady in the room who has been cued by the music. Her mother-in-law-to-be is also called to respond to the melody.

While the young woman in white moves gracefully with the music toward her chosen one, the song calls the mother of the groom to graciously step to the side. In reality, the wedding processional is not just for the bride. It is also a cue for a lifelong dance to begin for two special women in one man's life."

I don't know if you can tell, but when I read that, every time I read that, I choke up because I was that mother who was required to step aside and let another woman take that prominent place in my son's life. [00:13:09] I was a good mother. I pulled his baby teeth. I taught him to drive. I took care of that kid.

He grew to be a wonderful man. He chose a wife. And I am required, if I truly love my son, to step aside and let his wife take that place. And I do it. I do it gracefully, hopefully. I do it knowing that I'm pleasing God when I do it. But it is not easy nonetheless.

Laura Dugger: That's really helpful to hear. What does that leading actually look like? Do you have any examples?

Annie Chapman: Well, it looks like budding out of their lives and letting them make their own decisions. So many women in the survey... I asked the daughter-in-laws, you know, what did your mother-in-law do right and what did your mother-in-law do wrong?

Many of the comments from the daughter-in-laws that said, "My mother-in-law did this right," had to do with "she let us make our own decisions. She didn't try to force us to go to the same church that the family had gone to for 75 years. She didn't require us to come every Sunday for lunch like everybody else had always done. She backed off and let us have the freedom to choose what we wanted to do with our time." [00:14:39]

I just could feel the appreciation. And it wasn't that the daughter-in-laws didn't want to be a part of that family. I think they just wanted to have a choice. I have a friend who has this comment all the time when we're talking about things. She says, "It's not a decision. This is a discussion."

I think sometimes daughters-in-law feel like it's not a discussion when it comes to family events or different decisions that her family might want to make. If the mother-in-law is not backing off and if she's trying to dominate her son still like she did... you know, I have a phrase in the book that says, the qualities that make a mother an incredible or terrific mother to small children are the same characteristics that can make her a terrible mother to adult children. It's that tendency to want to always mother, to coddle, control, to do for their adult children.

So to back off is to let them be adults. And even sometimes at the risk of thinking maybe they don't make the right decisions. But it's still, our place is to... we lead by getting out of the way and letting them have their family. [00:15:59]

Laura Dugger: You also write about God's Word encouraging us to take specific action steps, both the mother-in-law and the daughter-in-law. Could you give us some examples of those action items?

Annie Chapman: Well, a daughter-in-law said that her mother-in-law was a real stinker. I mean, she was a budinsky. She was in their business and always injecting herself. The daughter-in-law did not want to cut off that relationship. She didn't want to damage it because ultimately she wanted to honor her husband's parents. And she wanted to do right by her husband by being respectful to his mother, but the mother was not making it easy.

So one thing she did that really turned the tide, she said, was on her husband's birthday, she sent her mother-in-law a bouquet of flowers. And with it, she wrote a note that said, "Because of your hard work, I am married to the most amazing, incredible, godly man. And I have you to thank for that. I appreciate all that you did for him through all of those years. And I wanted to acknowledge you on my husband's birthday." [00:17:20]

That one act, she said, changed everything in the relationship. She said her mother-in-law began to back off and she realized what her mother-in-law wanted was to be acknowledged. She wanted for someone to say I did a good job. And when that daughter-in-law did that, then it made it easier for the mother to back away and to say, Okay, I can release him into this woman's care because not only does she love him, I think she respects and honors what I have done in my son's life.

So little things like that. You know, the mother-in-law, of course, the best gift she can give is to allow that family, her son, and his wife, that freedom of not making them feel guilty because they don't come see you every Sunday afternoon. And just releasing him that way.

But the daughter-in-law can make it easier for the mother if she will acknowledge her and show appreciation for her. I believe acknowledgment and appreciation is followed by affection. I believe our ultimate goal is to love each other and to feel affection for each other. [00:18:35] But that affection, in my estimation, does not come first. It comes as a result of acknowledging and appreciating each other.

Laura Dugger: That's an incredible example. I think of my own mother-in-law. She's a very classy woman. Sometimes words or phrases that she's said are especially meaningful to me. I remember one simple one. She just said, "You know, you and my son, you're not just married, you're buddies." Related to this relationship, why are words so powerful?

Annie Chapman: Well, words are powerful not just in this relationship, but in every relationship. One of the chapters in the Bible that I visit quite frequently, actually, is James chapter 3. It's a dire warning. It's a very, very serious warning about the power of our words. [00:19:32]

Of course, we see in Proverbs, it says that life and death are in the hand of the tongue. Now, you don't think about the tongue having a hand, but it means the use of that tongue will either bring life or death. But James 3 talks about our words and it says, all of hell is set on fire by our words. And who doesn't know that you can burn down a relationship with the wrong words? With one word. But boy, if you're not being kind, you will tear that relationship down.

Many of the examples I had with the women that I surveyed, there were some real regrets. One woman in particular said, "I forced my husband to confront his mother. I really pushed him because I wanted him to put her in her place."

Well, she said, "My husband never does anything halfway. And he pushed her. Yeah, he pushed her out of our lives." [00:20:30] And when he was dying of cancer, he refused to let her come and see him. And she said, "I believe that was my doings. If I had not pushed him to tell her off, maybe we would have been able to work this out and had a relationship." So there was terrible regret about words that are said, and in the same way, those words that can tear down or they can build up.

I've heard it said, it takes a hundred attaboys to undo one, you know, "you're stupid". So we've got to really make sure our words stay sweet, our words stay kind, and that we show compassion. But words, they tear down relationships with our children, they tear down relationships with our parents, with our friends, with our husband, but boy, can they take a toll on that mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship. Because coming back to it, it's so fragile. One wrong word and it's over. And that's why we have to be so careful.

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Laura Dugger: You also include in your book one of my favorite parts of scripture from Proverbs 16 related to this topic and it says, "Pleasant words are a honeycomb, sweet to the soul and healing to the bones." Then you also address a very important topic of boundaries. Why are boundaries important?

Annie Chapman: Oh, wow. You know, fences make good neighbors. We all know that. Well, boundaries make good relationships, too. I mean, I've been on the stinging end of this. I hope you don't think I tell this stuff cavalierly because I've been on the end where I felt hurt that I've not been included or kind of told to back off.

So I know the sting of all of that. But boundaries, I believe, are best established when there is no emotional component to it. You don't wait until someone has done something or said something in order to create those boundaries because then those boundaries are associated with hurt feelings. [00:24:10]

I think things that are just common good manners can be the boundaries that will save a relationship. Like calling before you come over, knocking before you come in. Don't call in the evening when everything is so crazy. Like I said, discussions, not decisions.

I have a story in the book that I think really illustrates this. The daughter-in-law said that some of this was the fault of her fault and her husband's, because when they got married, they didn't move away, they moved next door.

She said in her mother-in-law's mind, her son wasn't really married. He didn't sleep in the next bedroom, he just slept in the next house. So she didn't see any need to have any kind of boundaries. It was like nothing had changed.

So she had the terrible habit of just barging in. She never knocked. She never called before she came over. She just arrived. And she said, one day the mother-in-law had something she thought was so urgent to tell her daughter-in-law that she just came into the house and she opened the bedroom door and there was her daughter-in-law standing stark naked.

She said she didn't even try to cover up herself. She didn't grab something and put it in front of her. She stood there naked. And her mother-in-law just told her what she needed to say and turned around and left. And the daughter-in-law said, "She never did that again." [00:25:37]

I thought that's a good lesson. You can't do that. You have to have boundaries. You wouldn't want your best friend just to walk in and take over. There's just common decency. So some boundaries they just need to be established, like when do you call? Do you call in the evening? Well, that needs to be something that is agreed on by both parties.

Now, people who live out of town, maybe on a Sunday, they want to make their call, as long as that's established and that's agreeable to both parties, that's fine. But you just have to use manners. You have to think ahead. Those boundaries of what you do are important.

Let me add one more boundary. This happened with me. Our son started out in a business that it was hard to get in. It was hard to make a living. And he really struggled. He's tried. There were times I didn't know if they were living on credit cards. I didn't know if he had money for rent.

I was praying for him one day and I said, "Lord, you know, this is just bugging me to death. I don't want to worry about them. I'd like to just give them some money and know that their rent's paid and they've got some money set aside and I won't have to think about it." [00:27:00] You know, that was just me and the Lord just having this conversation about what I wanted to do for my son so that I would feel good about it.

And as I was saying that to the Lord, my mind went back to a scene in my childhood. I was raised on a dairy farm. One day as a kid, I went up into the hayloft and I found a nest of eggs. We always used our eggs but the old hen had hidden this nest and the chicks were just beginning to hatch as I found this nest.

I saw their little beaks picking through and they were trying to get out of the shell. As a child I felt sorry for the chicks because it was so hard to free themselves from the shell. So I thought, I'm going to help those little chickens. So I began to peel the shell away so it wouldn't be so hard on them.

I helped several of the little chicks get rid of that shell. And to my horror, I saw each chick that I had helped free themselves from the shell began to die. What I didn't realize, it was the struggle to free themselves from the shell that gave them the stamina to live. [00:28:16] In a real sense, my kindness had killed them. And I was just horrified as I watched them die.

Well, when I'm praying there and saying, "Lord, I want to give him some money. I just want to help out and take the pressure off of them," my mind went back to those little chicks." And I thought, "Lord, that's what I'm doing to my son. I don't want him to struggle and so I'm trying to help. Please help me back off and let you be his source."

Because I felt the Lord whisper that sweetness in my heart that said, "Do you want them to learn to trust you or do you want them to learn to trust Me?" And I said, "Lord, I want them to trust you. And they won't unless I back off and let You show Yourself mighty in their lives."

And boy, that day was a lesson for me. And I've tried from that point on. It's not that I'm opposed to helping, but I want to know that God wants me to help, not because I don't want to have to think about it or feel sorry for him. [00:29:24]

Laura Dugger: My goodness, Annie, that story is so powerful. Thank you for sharing that. How do we establish healthy boundaries and expectations early on?

Annie Chapman: Well, we have to play it by ear. You know, this is a hard, hard job. The daughter-in-law is learning to be a wife and eventually a mother. That's a hard job. The mother is learning to un-mother and to back off and turn off the mommy faucet. And that is very difficult.

So what do you do? You take each situation at a time, each day at a time. But if our heart is in the right place, I think we're willing to give each other some grace. Now, there are mothers that they're going to be the main woman in that boy's life, and he doesn't care if it destroys his marriage. I know there are people like that.

But I'm going to give people the benefit of the doubt that as mothers and as wives, we want the best for our family. [00:30:29] And so backing off, loving as best we can, praying for each other, but watching the signs. I think people know when they've crossed the boundary. I think they know it.

And if they're willing to admit that. It'll all work out. You just take each day at a time. And if my goal is for my son and his wife to have a wonderful marriage, and if their goal is for me to feel loved and appreciated, we're going to get along okay.

Laura Dugger: Well, it's inevitable that both sides are going to make mistakes. So how do you recommend that we repair the damage?

Annie Chapman: With some humility. That goes a long way. With an apology. You know, if words can do damage, words can also heal. Sometimes people are not ready to let go of that. That's to their detriment. I think kind words, maybe small gifts. You know, like the woman sending flowers, that went a long ways to say, "You know, if there's been a breach in the past, I'd like for that to be over." [00:31:38]

But I think when people are serious about having a good life and enjoying their families they're willing to humble themselves. I have a dear friend who not only has a hard time with her daughter-in-law, she also has a hard time with her daughter-in-law's mother.

And many times my friend will say to me, "Okay, I'm gonna..." Usually it's a conflict about holidays and who gets what day and all that kind of stuff. And she said, "Okay, I'm gonna call her and I'm gonna say this and I'm gonna say that. And I'm not gonna stand for this and that again."

I just sat there and then my response to her every time is, "Don't do it. You're gonna get something started you can't finish." And then she comes back with this: "But it's not fair. It's not fair that I have to be the one that gives in every time."

That goes back to that humility thing of regarding others' needs as more important than your own, Philippians 2. [00:32:39] That's a passage that we probably don't really like to memorize because it requires a lot of us. She says, "It's not fair that I have to be the one that gives in." And I said, "You know what? You signed up for this."

When we became followers of Christ, we signed up to be second milers. And if you remember in Matthew 5, the passage where Jesus is talking and He says, "If someone makes you go a mile, go with them two miles."

Now, when we read that, that doesn't mean a whole lot, but that meant an awful lot to the Jewish people because there was a law under Roman rule that a Roman soldier or even a Roman citizen could require a Jewish man or Jewish boy, no matter what he was doing, to carry his load a mile.

So say you're walking down, there's a Jewish man and a Roman soldier and they're coming down a highway and they meet. That Roman soldier could demand of that Jewish man or boy to carry his backpack or his load, which took him the opposite direction of where he wanted to go, to go one mile. [00:33:49]

And it was said that a father would take his Jewish son out and they would walk off a mile every day so they would know to the foot how far a mile is. Because by Roman law, if they didn't do it, they could be killed. And so it was the law of the land. But Jesus said, if someone makes you go a mile, go two miles. Well, can you imagine how infuriating that was to that Jewish congregation?

What Jesus was saying to them and what He says to us today, we are called to be second milers because the first mile is required, the second mile is rewarded. The first mile is the law. The second mile is love. The first mile is the burden. The second mile is the blessing. The first mile, you're the slave. The second mile, you're the master.

So God has called us to be second milers. And so when it comes time to giving in and to showing deference to other people, it's what we signed up for when we signed up to be a follower of Christ. And so I remind my friend of that every time, and she just stomps her foot because she hates that so bad. But it's true. [00:35:05] You can't demand your own way and call yourself a follower of Christ.

Laura Dugger: There is such wisdom in that perspective, and I think that's so good and challenging for each of us. I know for me it is.

Annie Chapman: It's not easy. It's not easy.

Laura Dugger: Now, on the other side, is there ever a wise time to distance yourself from your in-laws?

Annie Chapman: Well, unfortunately, there is. In Romans 12, it says, "As much is up to you, live in peace with all people, with all men." And I believe that is the goal. I believe that's what I want. I want to think that there's not a person that I can't get along with, but that's not reality.

I have people in my family, I have people in my life that you try and you try but they just don't want to get along. So when it comes to that kind of person that just has put up... they don't put up boundaries, they put up walls, and they don't want you to be allowed into their lives. [00:36:12] You can't do a whole lot about that.

There's times when you just have to step back and distance yourself. I had one example I remember in the book of a daughter-in-law who had a mother-in-law like that. She said that she knew her mother-in-law had had a really rough upbringing, a lot of loss, a lot of hurt in her life. Her first fiancé had died before they could get married and she had always felt like life had kind of shortchanged her.

So she tried to get along with this woman who not only was mean to her, she was mean to her son. And she said, if she treats her son like that, what can I expect how she would treat me? She actually introduced the daughter-in-law to her friends as, "This is my fat daughter-in-law," which did not go over well.

But what do you do with a person like that? Do you just cut yourself off and you say, we're not going to have anything to do with this person? Well, she didn't want to do that. And this is a second miler. This is a follower of Christ. She wanted to love this mother-in-law. And even though the mother-in-law wasn't loving and lovable, she still wanted her children to know this woman. [00:37:20]

So she said she did some things to try to help cushion to keep their distance, but to not cut her off. One thing she did instead of going to the house, she said she would ask her to meet her, like, at McDonald's or Chick-fil-A, wherever there was a playground. She would have the mother-in-law meet her there, they would eat, and then the kids would see their mother-in-law, but they would run off and play on the playground.

She said, this way, her mother-in-law didn't have to worry about her knick-knacks getting broken. She didn't have to worry about her sofa being soiled or the carpets being dirty, or if the kids played outside, didn't hurt her flowers. All this was so that the mother-in-law would still have a relationship. But she knew she could not just be cozy and cuddly to her.

The second thing she said she did, not only did she keep her distance, but she tried to keep her words sweet. [00:38:16] Even when the mother was, you know, vinegar, she tried to be honey to the mother-in-law and had to stay nice even when the mother-in-law was insulting. And she tried to keep a sense of humor. She would send the mother-in-law little cartoons and little funny quips. And trying to keep this, there was a distance there, but she didn't want there to be that division between it.

Well, what happened was the mother-in-law died suddenly. The mother-in-law went out to the mailbox and just dropped dead. So when they went into the house, they saw the house the way the mother-in-law had left it as she went to the mailbox. What they found was amazing.

She said, "All over the house were post-it notes." Like at the mirror in the bathroom, it said, "Pray for...," and it was one of the family members. At the kitchen sink, "Pray for". Little post-it notes all over the house so that when she was in different places in her house, she prayed for her family members. [00:39:22]

They had not a clue that this woman cared about them like that. They didn't have a clue that she prayed. They were so amazed that this woman had kind of a secret life. But it wasn't a bad secret life. It was a sweet secret life. She kept her sweetness a secret.

She said, at the funeral when she looked down at her mother-in-law, she thought of all the times she could have said something mean, but she didn't. She thought of all the times she could have ignored her and not gone to see her, but she didn't. And she was so grateful that she could face her mother-in-law's death without regrets.

So, you know, there's people that's hard to love and you do love them from a distance, but it doesn't mean you don't love them.

Laura Dugger: Your stories are so impactful. From your research, do you have any practical ways that a daughter-in-law can show her love and appreciation to her mother-in-law?

Annie Chapman: Well, one thing I did, I worded a letter that I thought if a daughter-in-law is struggling to show her mother-in-law that she appreciates her, that maybe she could copy that letter that I put in the book, or maybe just get ideas of what she could say. [00:40:37]

I think letters, it's kind of a lost art. We text each other, we email each other. But I wonder what is happening to our history, not only as a country but as a family when we lose the art of letter writing. So I put a letter in there for a daughter-in-law to actually write out and send to her mother. And I did the same for the mother-in-law to give her an idea of what she could send to her daughter-in-law. And it's affirming.

I just think it's so important. We say words are important. You can't even compare how important it is to show that affirmation and that appreciation for one another. That's one idea that I think could really be positive.

Now, you got to be careful. Don't do any backhanded compliments. Don't say something but in your heart you're really trying to give her a dig. You know, like, Thanks for being so nice to me the last time I was there," when you know that she wasn't. [00:41:44] But just try to make sure your heart's pure in it and send that and see if there's a good response.

My mother-in-law sends me cards. My mother-in-law is 89 years old. When I talk about my mother-in-law, I just took care of her for 10 days. Any lesser woman would be in bed as an inlet. She's struggling and fighting to stay on her feet. But I fed her, I took care of her for 10 days. I just took her home yesterday.

So I am reaping the results of 44 years of us learning to dance and learning to love each other. And the end result is she adores me and I adore her. We've had our moments and we both bit our tongue and didn't say things that we both wanted to say.

She used to come to my house and she would rearrange my furniture and rearrange my kitchen. She just did. I'd come home and, you know, the plates were one place that I didn't intend. [00:42:50] One time she said, "Do you mind me rearranging your house and changing your kitchen while you're gone?" I said, "No, it doesn't bother me a bit because I put it exactly back where it was." And she goes, "Oh, okay." And we were both okay with it.

But the end result of really working at trying to love each other can have some sweet results. And right now we are enjoying the fruit of 44 years of learning how to dance.

Laura Dugger: That gives us such a great vision to aspire for. And now let's switch the roles. What are some practical ways that a mother-in-law can show her love and appreciation for her daughter-in-law?

Annie Chapman: Well, I think it goes along the same way of acknowledging her, that she is doing a good job. I do this with my daughter-in-law. I think criticism is the poison of the mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship. Sometimes as older women, as mothers, mothers-in-law, we've been around a while and we do think we know what to do, especially when these young people are having babies now.

My children were belly babies. Well, if you put a baby on its belly now, I mean, it's a terrible thing. Well, mine all survived and they were belly babies. [00:44:11] One thing we can do as mothers-in-law, let them be themselves. I wanted to put a blanket over my grandbabies and no, there's no blankets going to be in that crib. Okay, there's no blankets in that crib.

So I had to learn to be teachable as a mother-in-law. I think that's a gift as a mother-in-law we give our daughters-in-law is we don't criticize them, we don't correct them, we don't tell them how to do things. And if they tell us what to do, we say, Okay.

Laura Dugger: That's really good words. I think it keeps going back to not those words of criticism, but words of love and life and encouragement.

Annie Chapman: Criticism is a poison. If a mother-in-law wants to have a relationship with her son and with her grandkids and with her daughter-in-law, tone back the criticism. And if you can't say something nice, don't say anything.

Laura Dugger: I love that. Well, we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with insight or practical knowledge. [00:45:13] And as the final question today, what is your savvy sauce?

Annie Chapman: Oh, I'm glad you asked that because this wisdom has put me in good stead many, many times. But the older I get, the less I know. But what I know I know for sure. And this is what I know, that God is good. He loves me, that He's in control, and that I can trust Him. That has stayed with me through long nights when I couldn't sleep.

We had a bad report with one of our grandkids, our youngest grandson. We were so excited to be getting this baby and they did an ultrasound and it was a bad, bad result. We were told if he would be born, he would die. If he didn't die, he would be a vegetable. Just about the worst report you could get. [00:46:15]

Through the nights, I would pray and I would grieve. But when I couldn't sleep, I said, "Lord, I don't know what's going on. I don't know how this is going to turn out. But I do know this. I know you're good. I know you love us. I know you're in control. And I know I can trust You. I know that. I don't know a lot, but I do know that ."

And you know, God did a miracle for that baby and he is wonderful and healthy and fine and a walking miracle. And I told my son I said, "If you ever doubt God and you take a look at that child." And you be shamed for doubting God after what he's done for us with that baby. So that's my savvy sauce.

Laura Dugger: Ah, praise God for a happy ending to that story.

Annie Chapman: Yes, yes. [00:47:16]

Laura Dugger: You are such a charming person, and I just appreciate you taking the time to not only write this helpful resource but also thank you for taking the time to teach it to us today.

Annie Chapman: Well, you're more than welcome. When I re-read the book, I thought, "This is good." And it wasn't me being good. It was all the things the women that I had gleaned from had shared. I am so grateful to all those hundreds and hundreds of women who poured wisdom into me so that I could share it in the book.

Laura Dugger: Thank you again. It's incredible, and we appreciate you being here today.

Annie Chapman: Thank you.

Laura Dugger: If you want a chance to win one of Annie's books, head on over to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and click on our giveaway tab to find information for how you can enter to win a copy of Annie's book titled, The Mother-in-Law Dance.

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. [00:48:27] Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

So would you pray with me now? [00:49:40] Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:51:04]

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce

Practical chats for intentional living

A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.

They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!