224. Surprising Discoveries of Sex in Marriage: An Interview with Shaunti Feldhahn
*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults
Deuteronomy 29:29a (NKJV) "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us"
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Cover:
Are there any specific questions you recommend we ask our spouse periodically?
Will you elaborate on your finding that "men and women tend to have different insecurities that the process of sex can help heal or hurt"?
You write "Having a comfortable way to signal (and receive) openness or interest will create connection and prevent much pain." So, how can couples begin to develop their own private language or signals to communicate effectively in a healthy manner?
Thank you to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
Shaunti Feldhahn received her graduate degree from Harvard University and was an analyst on Wall Street before unexpectedly becoming a social researcher, best-selling author, and popular speaker.
Today, Shaunti applies her analytical skills to investigate eye-opening, life-changing truths about relationships, both at home and in the workplace. Her groundbreaking research-based books, such as For Women Only, The Kindness Challenge, and Thriving in Love & Money, have sold more than 3 million copies in 25 languages. Her books and studies are popular in homes, counseling centers, and corporations worldwide.
Shaunti (often with her husband, Jeff) has spoken around the world, sharing her findings with audiences ranging from churches to women’s and marriage conferences to arena events to youth camps and cruises (yes, those are particularly painful…). Her research and commentary are regularly featured in media as diverse as The Today Show, Focus on the Family, The New York Times and MomLife Today. Shaunti, Jeff, and their two children live in Atlanta and enjoy every minute of living life at warp speed.
Secrets of Sex and Marriage Website
Previous Episodes on Sexual Intimacy on The Savvy Sauce:
Fostering a Fun, Healthy Sex Life with your Spouse with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Ways to Deepen Your Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Douglas Rosenau
Ten Common Questions About Sex, Shared Through a Biblical Worldview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Easy Changes to Enhance Your Sexual Intimacy in Marriage with Dr. Clifford and Joyce Penner
Hope For Treating Pelvic Pain with Tracey LeGrand
Treatment for Sexual Issues with Certified Sex Therapist, Emma Schmidt
Talking With Your Kids About Sex with Brian and Alison Sutter
Natural Aphrodisiacs with Christian Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Douglas Rosenau
Pain and Joy in Sexual Intimacy with Psychologist and Certified Sex Therapist, Dr. Jessica McCleese
Identifying and Fighting Human Trafficking with Dr. Jeff Waibel
Hormones and Body Image with Certified Sex Therapist, Vickie George
Passion Pursuit with Dr. Juli Slattery
Female Orgasm with Sue Goldstein
Erectile Dysfunction, Premature Ejaculation, and Treatments Available with Dr. Irwin Goldstein
Turn Ons, Turn Offs, and Savoring Sex in Marriage with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Desire Discrepancy in Marriage with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Answering Listener's Questions About Sex with Kelli Willard
Anatomy of an Affair with Dave Carder
Supernatural Restoration Story with Bob and Audrey Meisner
Healthy Minds, Marriages, and Sex Lives with Drs. Scott and Melissa Symington
Female Pornography Addiction and Meaningful Recovery with Crystal Renaud Day
Building Lasting Relationships with Clarence and Brenda Shuler
Healthy Ways for Females to Increase Sexual Enjoyment with Tracey LeGrand
Pornography Healing for Spouses with Geremy Keeton
Sexual Sin Recovery for You and Your Spouse (Part Two)
Personal Development and Sexual Wholeness with Dr. Sibylle Georgianna
Our Brain’s Role in Sexual Intimacy with Angie Landry
Discovering God's Design for Romance with Sharon Jaynes
Sex in Marriage and Its Positive Effects with Francie Winslow, Part 1
Science and Art of Sexual Intimacy in Marriage, Part 2
Making Love in Marriage with Debra Fileta
Mutually Pleasing Sex in Marriage with Gary Thomas
Sex Series: God’s Design and Warnings for Sex: An Interview with Mike Novotny
Sex Series: Enhancing Female Pleasure and Enjoyment of Sex: An Interview with Dr. Jennifer Degler
Sex Series Orgasmic Potential, Pleasure, and Friendship: An Interview with Bonny Burns
Sex Series: Sex Series: Healthy Self, Healthy Sex: An Interview with Gaye Christmus
Sex Series: Higher Sexual Desire Wife: An Interview with J Parker
Sex Series: Six Pillars of Intimacy with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo
215 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part One with Dr. Kris Christiansen
216 Enriching Women's Sexual Function, Part Two with Dr. Kris Christiansen
217 Tween/Teen Females: How to Navigate Changes during Puberty with Dr. Jennifer Degler
218 Secrets of Sex and Marriage: Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Patreon 23 Her Desires and His Desires in the Bedroom with Dr. Jennifer Konzen
Patreon 26 Holy Sex with Dr. Juli Slattery
Patreon 28 Protecting Your Marriage Against Unfaithfulness with Dave Carder
Patreon 29 Remaining Sexually Engaged Through The Years with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Patreon 49: Story of Healing from Sexual Betrayal in Marriage: An Interview with Bonny Burns
Patreon 52 God, Sex, and Your Marriage with Dr. Juli Slattery
Shaunti's Previous Episode on The Savvy Sauce:
Understanding Men and Women Better with Shaunti Feldhahn
Shaunti's Co-Author's Most Recent Episode on The Savvy Sauce:
Secrets of Sex and Marriage: Interview with Dr. Michael Sytsma
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:20] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in Central Illinois. Visit them today at Lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
Shaunti Feldhahn is my returning guest today. She's a social researcher and best-selling author, and she's going to share findings from her most recent project all around the topic of sexual intimacy in marriage.
Here's our chat.
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Shaunti.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, thanks. It's so great to be back with you guys.
Laura Dugger: Well, you've been a guest previously when you spoke about understanding men and women better. [00:01:20] But today, I'm excited to learn about the discoveries from this fabulous book that you and Dr. Michael Sytsma recently co-authored entitled Secrets of Sex and Marriage.
So let's begin here. Logistically, how did you find people to survey and interview who felt comfortable enough sharing this information?
Shaunti Feldhahn: That is the question, right? When I first felt like I was being led in this direction and that God wanted us to tackle this topic, I was like, "You've got to be kidding me." Because, you know, all of our research projects, they all start with trying to find out how all of us like average people think and feel and the real issues and the stuff we don't get and where the pain points are. And I'm like, "How am I ever going to get information on this?"
And so thankfully... here's actually what happened, and it worked really well. [00:02:22] We ended up doing all the normal kind of anonymous interviews that I normally do with whoever is sitting next to me on the subway or whoever is next to me on the airplane. But I couldn't do that on this topic because, you know, I'd get arrested.
What we ended up doing was we did the anonymous interviews over Zoom with their cameras blacked out and with fake names. So Jeff and I did all the interviews together. They could see us like our camera was on, but we couldn't see them. We had no idea who they were. They picked fake names and some of them were hilarious, like, you know, Farm Boy and Buttercup or like Wanda and Vision. It was very sweet, but it allowed people to really share safely knowing that we had no idea who they were.
Laura Dugger: That's so creative. And I'd love to know, what findings were you most surprised with by this study? [00:03:27]
Shaunti Feldhahn: Well, you know, it's interesting. I'll be candid. Pretty much everything surprised me. One of the things that we try to do in all of our research projects is dig out the stuff that sort of surprises us average couples. One of the things we were focusing on was, what is it that we don't get? Because basically, we're trying to dig out the little things that make a big difference. And if people already know them, they would already be doing them most of the time. And so by definition, we were trying to dig out the stuff that surprised us that we didn't know mattered.
I partnered on this survey and on this project with this renowned sex therapist named Dr. Michael Sytsma, who's very, very well respected and looked to as one of the key leaders in the Christian community in this area. So nothing surprised him. He was like, "Yeah, heard that a million times." [00:04:27] But everything that we included actually surprised us.
If you want to know, probably my most important surprise, one of the things that we had covered in a couple of previous projects but even so, I found myself being like, "Oh, my gosh, oh, my gosh. I had no idea" is that when we're talking about physical intimacy as a couple, one of the things that is a really, really common dynamic is that when one partner... kind of just to put it kind of bluntly, one partner wants more connection in that way than the other. Like there's a little bit of a mismatch, which, by the way, is the case with 79% of couples. So the vast majority of us, one partner is kind of wanting more.
The assumption that's running into the surface is that the reason for that disconnect is that one person has a lower drive than the other and a lower libido. And yeah, that could sometimes be actually an accurate thing that they have a lower drive. [00:05:45] But we found that most of the disconnect isn't because of that.
One of the most important surprises to me is that within most couples, you're working with two different types of desire. And most of us don't even know that's a thing. That to me was the biggest like aha moment. I can explain the two different types of desire if you're interested.
Laura Dugger: Yes, please do, because these two types of desire manifest in the reverse order. So it's fascinating.
Shaunti Feldhahn: It really is. It's crazy. Like I said, we had covered this a little bit in For Women Only and For Men Only. But we went much more in-depth in this topic in this research project and learned all these things about the physiology that were just, well, like so helpful to know.
Basically, if you think about it, the version of what we think desire is, is what we see kind of in a movie. [00:06:47] Like it's the Hollywood idea where the guy and the girl kind of look at each other and there's a spark and they both have this sense of hunger for this. You know, they start kissing and pretty soon the clothes are off and they're in bed. Like that's the normal what you see on the screen.
And for many of us, it doesn't actually work that way and so we think something's wrong or our spouse thinks something is wrong. What we found out is that usually there's nothing wrong. I mean, yeah, sure, some people might have medical issues or whatever, but most of the time it's these two different types of desire. And that sort of Hollywood version where you feel that sense of hunger and you want to connect that you could call initiating desire.
But there's a second type of desire called receptive desire. The person with receptive desire generally actually has to decide to get engaged sexually. [00:07:48] What we found physiologically is that literally the desire works in the reverse order in the physiology where that person decides to get engaged. And then once their physiology starts getting stimulated, then they start feeling that desire that maybe their spouse felt five or ten minutes ago.
And that right there, that one like aha moment, because that is the majority of couples, one partner has initiating desire and one partner has receptive desire. Actually understanding that is like, wow. It makes such a difference because then neither of us feel like someone's broken. It just is so life-giving once we understand this.
Laura Dugger: Yes, because you make so many great points in that section about anticipation time kind of waking up that receptive partner. And possibly one of my favorite quotes of the book, just because it was summed up brilliantly, is where it says, "In general, for men, desire leads to sex, while for women, sex leads to desire." [00:09:00]
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yep. And that is the case for the vast majority. Now, there are always exceptions, right? Like one of the things that was really interesting is that 73% of women have receptive desire, but 24% have initiating desire. You know, it's about this one-in-four thing. There's an exception.
Some of the women listening to this are going to recognize more of the initiating thing like for themselves. But for most of us as women, it really is life-changing to realize I am not weird. I am not broken.
Also, if we happen to have that receptive desire and our spouse happens to have that initiating desire, it's encouraging to our spouse, too. Because many wives told us that their husbands, you know, they thought that they just weren't desirable enough. [00:10:01] Like there's something wrong with them, that their wife just isn't as interested.
One of the things this allows us to do is to tell all the initiating desire people out there, which is usually going to be the husband, but not always, is that just so you know, you think, why isn't my spouse interested? Well, "interested" is an initiating desire word. Your spouse is interested, but that interest isn't activated until after they get going. And so they're making a decision knowing that it will be good eventually and wanting to connect.
Actually, that should be encouraging as well for all the initiating desire spouses out there. It's not the hunger that maybe they want us to have, but that hunger will arrive down the road.
Laura Dugger: It's just incredible how you've articulated this in a really practical way so that it's a book that couples can just read, maybe not even a chapter at a time out, loud with one another. [00:11:08] And I love how it's even brought in this third type of desire, which is intentional desire of, "Okay, it's been a little while. We've been really crazy with the kids and our schedules, but we know this is good for us. So we're going to pursue one another regardless of our actual desire."
Shaunti Feldhahn: Intentional desire sort of it overlaps with the others. And it's basically I want to want this, right? It's kind of like a couple of years ago, I unexpectedly found out that I have breast cancer and I had to go through all of the treatments and everything and they caught it early. It was fine. But one of the things that we realized pretty quickly is that my normal eating habits needed to change and they needed to be more intentional.
Because I'm always on the go. I'm always running from an airport to speak at a women's group somewhere or whatever and so I'm running through a fast food place and like, Okay, I don't actually want to eat healthy if I'm really honest, like I love sugar and I'm actually very happy with running through a drive through. [00:12:17] But no, I want to eat healthy. And it's sort of an intentional thing. And then I'm glad I did.
Actually the last year or two now, I'm so glad that I've started to eat more healthy to try to get my weight back in balance and try to get my health back in balance and prevent the cancer from coming back that now I'm actually enjoying it. I don't want to stop.
It's kind of that same thing when it comes to our intimate life is that intentionality. For many people, it actually stimulates that desire. Now, for some people, it's just always going to be a choice. But for many, when you want to want it and you sort of take steps towards it, then the chemicals get engaged and then you want it more and it becomes a positive cycle.
Laura Dugger: I love how you share all of that, because I think God really does meet us there when we give that to Him and say, "Okay, to be honest, I don't want this right now, but I want to want this. Can you help me?" Something good like that. He does provide that strength. So thank you for sharing that story. And I'm so grateful that you're in remission from cancer.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Aw, thanks. I appreciate that. [00:13:33]
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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Laura Dugger: What are some common wrong assumptions that you found many couples making? [00:15:37] And then what's some truth that we can replace it with?
Shaunti Feldhahn: Okay, there's a couple. And I'll just give you an example based on what we were just talking about. One of the wrong assumptions is that my spouse is wired the same way as I am. Like there's just this one type of desire, for example.
So the truth to replace it with is, Okay, actually, it is highly likely that we are wired in two different ways. And that was God's choice. Like if you're upset that your spouse doesn't have initiating desire and you want them to be hungry for you, take that up with God and not with your spouse, because that's the wiring. Right?
Then another common wrong assumption is kind of like, well, it just is what it is. And so I'm just wired this way. And so there's nothing I can do about it and kind of deal with it. That's actually wrong, too, because we are called to care for one another and what matters to both of us, actually. [00:16:44]
The truth there is, is basically this concept that, you know what, we're always going to need to be mindful of this. This is something that the initiating desire spouse, for example, is going to have to be mindful to say, "Oh, wow, you know, my spouse is making a decision to engage with me. I need to see that as a beautiful thing and not something that's like less than." And to be grateful for that and to try to be that type of person that draws them in so they want to engage. And I'm always going to need to work on that. That's a good thing.
The person with receptive desire, for example, is probably always going to need to work on that intentionality and that mindfulness of wanting to want and recognizing how important this is for a marriage, both scientifically and biblically. We see that.
And so assuming that it's a healthy relationship and assuming that, you know, there's goodwill between both spouses and this isn't an abusive or controlling kind of thing, that working on that becomes a beautiful thing. [00:17:55] That truth of, you know what, this is something that I'm always going to want to be mindful about on both sides helps us to sort of get outside ourselves, which I think is really, really important in this area.
Laura Dugger: And with that mindset, you also conclude solutions do exist. And I think that gives everyone hope and hopefully some motivation to seek help in this if this is an area of struggle beyond what you're saying, that we need to always be mindful of this and working on it.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes, exactly
Laura Dugger: Well, in marriage, then how can we use our wiring differences to create a dynamic love life?
Shaunti Feldhahn: One of the most crucial things that we found in this research project, I think one of the biggest surprises was about these two different types of desires. But one of the most important application pieces, one of the things that will make everything better is to basically be curious. [00:19:00] The need for each of us, both the husband and wife, to approach our spouse with sort of this curious stance.
One of the things we found actually, statistically, is that it's really common for us to just kind of go on autopilot sort of and make some assumptions about one another. And we're running around with all the different things of life and the kids and work and, you know, whatever is going on. So we're kind of operating based on this day-to-day sense of, and I hate to say this out loud, but this day-to-day sense of sort of cluelessness.
It's like we're just going about our day and we're no longer curious like we were at the beginning in our relationship. Or even worse, actually, and this does happen and this is a damaging thing, is sometimes we've veered over... We're no longer not just not curious and kind of clueless. We've sort of veered over into critical where "something is wrong with you" or the eye rolls or "Ow, I can't believe you said it that way. You know, forget it" or whatever. Like that kind of critical stance. [00:20:17]
Those two, the critical stance and the what you might call the clueless stance, are both really actually destructive to the marriage as a whole. One of the things that changes a lot, we found statistically, is that if you can snap back into that curious stance that you definitely had at the beginning, like, Okay, what matters to you? And I'm talking about big-picture marriage stuff, not just in the bedroom. Like, why is it that when I said such and such, I'm curious, why did that make you so upset? Like, what was going on in your mind and your heart when I said that about like, why did you let the kids run around outside without their shoes? Like, why did that make you upset?
And then it's like, "Oh, oh, you know, your spouse is articulating something like, well, I've been with them all day. So you could do your work thing, you know, on Zoom and they were having so much fun and here I was feeling like you were criticizing me for this one thing instead of saying "Thank you for taking the kids all day." [00:21:34] "Oh, Okay, got it. Sorry. I wasn't thinking."
And that's that curious stance of what matters to you. What do you feel about this? That's for everything in marriage. But then when you apply that especially to your intimate life and especially about what are you thinking and feeling here? What matters to you? What makes you uncomfortable and why? That kind of stuff, it really improves everything because it's basically an antidote to cluelessness and a criticism and contempt and just a bunch of other things that cause issues in a relationship.
Laura Dugger: Okay, Shaunti, then if we are wanting to remain curious, are there any other specific questions that you recommend we ask our spouse periodically? [00:22:34]
Shaunti Feldhahn: Absolutely. One of the most simple, superpower kind of questions is basically... and this is and this is you asking yourself or asking your spouse. But it's really more about asking yourself this, which is essentially, what's important to my husband, my spouse right now that I don't know that I need to know? Like what is mattering to them that I'm not aware of?
Actually, one of the ways we designed the book on purpose was to help people get at that question because we designed it so that the spouses could kind of read it together and read it out loud to each other.
I'll tell you something that just happened a few days ago. My husband and I were doing another podcast with another couple that does a lot of marriage stuff in their ministry. On their podcast, one of the things that they told us, which was so encouraging, was they said that they had gotten our book because probably like with you, our publisher sent a copy of the book so you could look at it and the producer could decide whether they wanted to have us on for the interview. [00:23:49]
And they said, "Oh, you know what, we have had this practice of taking just, you know, whatever book for several months and reading it out loud to one another in the evening. And often, you know, we'll read three or so pages a night and just talk about it." And they said, "We started your book as our book that we're going to be reading for the next few weeks or whatever." And they said, "We're not getting three pages a night. We're getting like three sentences a night. Because we start saying, "Is this you? And the other person is like, yes, that's me. And the other person is like, what? Tell me about this."
And so that of getting at what is important to my spouse right now that I need to know, that really is this superpower question that will help improve everything in marriage.
Laura Dugger: I love that. You're right. Sometimes the best questions that are going to unlock deep conversation are really the most simple. [00:24:52] So that's a really helpful application for today.
Were there any other surprising discoveries that we haven't discussed yet?
Shaunti Feldhahn: I'll tell you another sort of surprise that was a really interesting one for me, which was that... Okay, this is going to sound really weird, but I'm going to say it anyway. Most couples don't actually realize that one of the reasons for disappointment... You know how that sort of dynamic where somebody thought something was going to happen tonight and then it doesn't and then the other spouse feels like this pressure, like, wait, you were expecting something. You know, that kind of that disappointment and pressure dynamic? Well, it turns out one of the reasons for that is that we just don't have a good process for initiation, which people listening to this are probably like, what are you talking about? But really, truly, it's a huge deal. I was so surprised that so many of those hurt feelings can actually be prevented if both spouses have a signal, like there's some way of signaling interest or openness. [00:26:10]
Like one of the things that I thought was hilarious was I was talking to our co-author, Dr. Michael Sytsma and he was telling me something that had just happened in his therapy office recently, where he had a couple that were really, really disconnected around this area and the husband said, "My wife just doesn't ever want it. She's just never interested." And his wife said, "Well, yeah, I am. I mean, I may not feel it at the beginning, but I know I will when I get going. And so I'm open to it." And he's like, "But you never show me that you're open." And she said, "Last night we were sitting on the couch watching news and I put my hand on your knee." And the husband was like, "That was you initiating?"
And it was this thing where they just had never talked about like, What are the signals? What are the things that we know means I'm open, I'm not, I'm interested. Can we do this another night? [00:27:16]
A lot of couples we found in the survey, the vast majority, and this was a nationally representative survey, the vast majority had no signals. But the ones that did were far more likely to connect.
Laura Dugger: Wow, isn't that interesting? Going back to that connection, it's back to the foundation of remaining curious, having that stance, and communicating.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yes. One of the best stories, it cracked me up,one of the couples, they had this thing where the wife who is the receptive desire spouse, when she would come home from her shift as a pharmacist, she would discreetly write on their mirror in erasable ink and erasable marker. She would write a number on the mirror between 1 and 10. And her husband would sneak upstairs and check it like, you know, they help the kids' dinner and homework and activities and you know, whatever. [00:28:18] But the number was basically how receptive am I feeling tonight?
Laura Dugger: Wow.
Shaunti Feldhahn: And it was like, "If it was an eight to ten, it's basically like, "I'm a sure bet if you ask" kind of thing. One to four was, and I thought this was hilarious. One to four she said was, stay back if you want to keep your parts. And that five to seven was basically like, I'm not sure. Like, maybe. Maybe not. Let's talk about it. Not sure.
But that basically helped completely prevent, 100% prevent that sense of anticipation and expectation and something's going to happen and wait, they're tired. It really allowed the couple to communicate about it well, and set expectations with one another well. I loved that example. I thought it was brilliant.
Laura Dugger: Goodness, couples are so creative. [00:29:23] I love that. Will you elaborate on your finding, and I'll just quote you here, that men and women tend to have different insecurities that the process of sex can help heal or hurt?
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yeah. So going all the way back to the research on for women only about understanding the inner lives of men, and for men only, which is helping men understand the inner lives of women, one of the least understood things that often causes problems, and this, by the way, causes a lot of issues in a lot of areas of marriage, not just in physical intimacy, but it has a direct application here, is the reality that for most men and for most women, and I'm talking about depending on our survey, it was somewhere in the 75 to 85% range for men and 75 to 85% range for women, which means, by the way, again, there's that exception, quotient, right? [00:30:30]
Laura Dugger: Mm-hmm.
Shaunti Feldhahn: But that we tend to have different primary insecurities and vulnerabilities and self-doubts that are running under the surface. And it's kind of a painful raw nerve and we withdraw when that raw nerve is hit in some way.
Women's insecurity in general is basically, am I lovable? That's kind of what's running on the surface, which is one of the reasons that we love to feel loved, because it speaks to that and it says you are lovable for who you are as a person on the inside, right?
But for men, in most cases, again, not all, but in most cases, the insecurity is actually really different. It's not am I lovable, but am I able? Am I adequate? Do I measure up? You could basically say and summarize it as am I any good at what I do on the outside? [00:31:31]
So women are more like, am I worthy of being loved for who I am on the inside? Men are much more questioning, am I any good at what I do on the outside?
And when there's pain in the relationship, men, if that raw nerve is hit, if again, like he's been outside with the kids and you come outside and like, why are you letting them run around with other shoes, that's saying you're no good at what you do. We don't think of it that way, but that's what he's hearing. "What you did on the outside, it wasn't good enough. You failed." And it's painful. It's because of that insecurity it's a raw nerve.
And if a man feels that self-doubt and that vulnerability regularly hit, he tends to kind of pull back emotionally. He shuts down. He becomes passive. He stops talking. He might get angry. It's a signal of pain. [00:32:31]
For us as women, again, this is not 100%, but when we're hurt as women and feeling like I'm not lovable, he doesn't love me, it's too easy for him to spend all the time at the office and he doesn't talk anymore, we withdraw not just kind of emotionally, we actually withdraw sexually in the bedroom. We're not going to be as open. We're not going to be as interested.
And yet when we try to attend to these two different sets of vulnerabilities, what ends up happening is that both of us become more open. Like our husband, many women have noticed that when they are being intentional about that physical intimacy and having that intentional desire, that they notice that their husband is just much more tender and he's much more warm and more attentive. [00:33:33] That's like a signal of him feeling cared for. That's his signal.
So for us, our signal is on a lot of sorts of things, but we're also more open in the bedroom, usually. That's an example of just how important this is. It's all wrapped up in those insecurities.
Laura Dugger: One reoccurring scripture that comes up for The Savvy Sauce is James 1:22. It says, Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says." And because our tagline here is Practical Chats for Intentional Living, we want to hear how you are applying these messages to your own life. What action steps have you taken after hearing one of these podcasts that has improved your life a little bit? We would love to hear it. Please email us at info at The Savvy Sauce.com.
You've documented, I'll just give an example from your book for both women and men, because this practically may be very helpful to some couples to understand one another. [00:34:39] You wrote, "As one woman put it, I know that my body climaxing almost has more to do with how close I feel to my husband than it does the physical act."
And then from the husband's point of view, you had written, "If you want to, you can press the reset button on your husband any time." Also it make me giggle. Those are so helpful.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Yeah, it's interesting. And it's also controversial to some degree. Because some people say, are you talking about manipulating him with your body? Like, that's what some people are going to hear from that.
The reality is actually not the way you're thinking, because this is where both people want it this way, where he is longing for connection in that example, and you want that connection as well. And just recognize is that this actually speaks in a very deep way to that question of "am I able?" inside that he has. And feeling desirable really speaks to that. [00:35:48] And so this is a mutual way of showing one another that you care.
In today's world, it's a controversial question, it's a controversial issue. And all I'm doing is saying, these are the numbers. This is something that if you feel like that there are some issues there in your relationship, think about caring for one another in what matters to the other person's vulnerabilities and speaking into that. Because it really does... in most cases, it speaks life to that person.
Laura Dugger: And on this topic of insecurities, would you mind sharing a lesson that one 81-year-old woman taught you?
Shaunti Feldhahn: I was telling this to a women's group not that long ago. I was doing a multi-speaker women's conference. I was asking the organizers if I could tell this story because it's a little bit spicy. [00:36:51]
But it was just so perfect on this topic, because I was actually at another women's event a number of years ago and we were talking about this topic and about the insecurities inside. The woman who had founded this women's conference, like 40-something years before she was now 81 years old.
She was talking about how important it was that at this women's conference that we did talk a bit about intimacy. Like it's such a big deal. We needed to talk about it and the insecurities playing in. And she said she had been at a women's Bible study... She had an 87-year-old husband; she and her husband had been married for a lot of years. And she had been at a women's Bible study, where the apparently the Bible study teacher had addressed these insecurities and said, "You know what, we have to get across to ourselves that in Christ, we are loved and we are beautiful and we are accepted, just as we are with all of our imperfections." [00:37:58] And that that, you know, helps in our life in many ways, including our intimate life.
So she said the teacher of this Bible study said we have so many insecurities about our bodies, for example, that she said the next time that you get out of the shower, you drop that towel and you look in the bathroom mirror and you ask yourself, am I loved and accepted and beautiful just as I am?
So this 81-year-old lady said she did that the day before and she got out of the shower and she asked herself in the mirror, am I loved, accepted, and beautiful just as I am? And she hears this chuckle and she turns her head and there is her 87-year-old husband lying on the bed in the bedroom and he goes, "Yes, you are, and bring it over here, baby."
I love that so much, partly because I just love that story, but also because of what it says that we have found also in the numbers in this nationally representative survey, which is that if we can understand some of these things around one another and tend to one another's insecurities and vulnerabilities, there is no reason in the world, even if our bodies stop working perfectly as we get older and older, there's no reason in the world that we can't still have a rich, intimate life together. [00:39:32]
Being creative and caring for one another well into our 80s and 90s, even that when people are probably raising their eyebrows at that, but I've asked many sex therapists that question and they all say, Oh, yes, absolutely. So that to me is encouraging.
Laura Dugger: Love it. Because that just perfectly illustrate just the playfulness and the sense of humor, laughter, and fun that it can add to enrich your marriage. But let's also circle back to something that you had covered a little while ago about us missing each other's signals and having miscommunications that often lead to hurt. Because you're right, "Having a comfortable way to signal and receive openness or interest will create connection and prevent much pain."
So Shaunti, how can couples begin to develop their own private language or signals to communicate effectively in a healthy manner? [00:40:36]
Shaunti Feldhahn: Well, that example of writing the number on the mirror of how open am I feeling tonight, those kinds of examples is something that you're just going to have to your spouse about. And the easiest way to do it to get started is essentially, what do we already do? What is it that already is a bit of a thing?
Like one couple, their particular schedule was such that there was a lot of running around to get the kids out the door for school early in the morning. And then they had a couple of hours before they had to each be at their individual jobs. So they took showers and everything after they got the kids to school, which obviously a lot of families do.
One of the things that they had talked about that they didn't even realize was like an official signal, but they could turn it into one, is as they're running around the kitchen with the kids, one of them would ask the other, so you getting ready to take your shower? [00:41:43] And they would raise their eyebrows. And that was sort of an invitation to "you want to join me?" And of course, the kids are like 8 years old, they have no idea what's going on.
But that was an example of something that they didn't realize was a thing. When we started asking them, like, how do you know whether you want to connect or not, that was the kind of story we heard and realized, Oh, wait, that could become an official example of as opposed to just when it happens occasionally. And so it's that kind of stuff that you're developing your own private language in order to communicate well.
Now, let me just say, and this is really important, there are going to be some couples that have significant heartache and pain in this area, because maybe the communication is broken down, maybe the relationship has broken down, you know, maybe there's been trauma that has kind of gotten in the way and you think it's a bridge too far to try to figure out how to get some sort of signal going that we already are doing because we're not doing anything. [00:42:55]
That's an example of where if there is some significant pain that has been built up, there's maybe some work that has to be done first before you go into that. Sometimes the work is just, you know, reading the book out loud to one another and going, Oh, my gosh, I had no idea. I'm so sorry. You know, like understanding one another more, getting curious, like we talked about.
But sometimes it's really important to say, "You know what, there are some pieces of the puzzle here that we need somebody to help us figure out. We need to be able to figure out how to communicate more effectively on this." And to go see a counselor, go see a therapist, even if it's just for a few visits.
To be able to say, "We have some issues in communicating, especially around this area, but really all areas that we need to figure out in order to get better in the more intimate areas of our life." [00:43:58] So that's something for people to just be aware of is that there are things that you can do, but you do actually in some cases have to do them before you can connect well.
Laura Dugger: That's such a good word because help is available. Some couples listening may absolutely be benefited by seeking that out. If anybody wants to learn more from you after this conversation, where would you direct us?
Shaunti Feldhahn: Probably the most important starting point, we actually... and when I say we, I mean Dr. Michael Sytsma and me and Jeff, we created a website called secretsofsexandmarriage.com. So it's the exact same as the book title. So secretsofsexandmarriage.com.
One of the things that we were, and still are, we're continuing to add to it all the time that we were doing is wanting to build up a central resource, I guess, so that if people are like, Oh, wow, I recognize I need a little help in this area, or, you know, what about my husband has a problem with pornography, or, well, we're not having sex as much because I have like significant sexual pain or stuff that's more specialized, right? [00:45:17]
One of the things we wanted to do and have done on that website is we've created a bunch of resources for people on those particular areas. And we're adding more all the time. And, and this is probably the most important piece, is that if someone needs a little bit of extra help, we have some ways that that person can get some referral resources to find a specialist in whatever the area is.
Because that's the thing that's really encouraging. There is no reason in the world that most of these problems can't be solved. Most of them absolutely can. And that was one of the most encouraging things about working with a sex therapist on this project is stuff that I saw is like, Oh, my gosh, that's a really big issue. He's like, no, no, no, we deal with this all the time. It's fine. So that's helpful and encouraging.
Often something can be started, even if only one partner wants to start it, and just get some counsel and advice. [00:46:21]
Laura Dugger: It's so good. We will certainly link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. Additionally, we have at least 50 episodes that are free on The Savvy Sauce that do discuss all of these different areas of sexual intimacy in marriage.
So I will add links to those as well. But just for fun, Shaunti, are there any funny family stories? Because there were three out of the four members of your family that were working together on this project. Is that right?
Shaunti Feldhahn: Oh, my gosh, I do not know how you found that. That was hidden in the acknowledgments of the book. Yes, there is a funny family story. Because Dr. Mike and I, after we do all the interviews and the anonymous interviews and whatever, we always do these big surveys, right? These nationally representative surveys. We get really good data. It's really expensive.
And this data is purchased at a cost, basically. Like for this project, it was $120,000 project and so the analysis of this precious data becomes really important. [00:47:34] We had a PhD graduate student working with us to do a lot of the number crunching and, you know, do a lot of the analysis because we could do it but, you know, we just don't have time to do that and the writing and some other analysis and all the other stuff we were doing.
So we had this graduate PhD student working with us. And we get the data in and about a week later... I mean, it's not funny, but a week later, she has this like family emergency where she has to move back to where she's from because her dad, I guess had a stroke or needed a lot of medical attention, and they needed her help.
And she said, "I'm so sorry, I'm not going to be able to work on this project." And we're like, "Oh, my gosh, this is May. By now there's no way to find somebody else who could do a summer job," because this is basically a summer job for a graduate student or whatever. "And there's no way that we're going to be able to find somebody who's that good. And we have the book to turn in." Like this was devastating. [00:48:39] And I asked Jeff, I'm like, "What are we going to do? We don't have anybody to analyze the data. And he kind of looks at me funny and he says, "Um, I think she's living upstairs."
Because our daughter who is an engineering student, which is heavily quantitative, heavily math-oriented, our daughter's internship for the summer had actually fallen through. And I realized, Oh, my gosh, we don't need a PhD graduate student in sexual therapy. We just need somebody who's really good at quantitative analysis.
So we went to our at-the-time 20-year-old daughter. And we're like, "Um, how would you feel about being the analyst on this project with your mother and father about sex?" [00:49:30] And the poor girl is like, "Okay, I need a job, I need the income, you need my help, but you are paying for my therapy." It actually ended up working really well. She just basically pretended that she was not working for her mother and father. She just pretended this was a job like any other job. And she did a great job.
Laura Dugger: I love it. Fortunately, you've met and worked with many wonderful therapists through the years. So that works out well. And I'm just wondering what family conversations would look like around the table then because three out of the four are working on it.
Shaunti Feldhahn: None. Zero. I'm quite sorry, but she put on her little professional hat and she's like, "Okay, let's analyze the orgasm questions here. Here's the orgasm answers." And she's like, "Just so you know, I'm pretending I'm not having this conversation with you." So, no, none of those conversations happened around the family dinner table. Because we pretended we were not members of the same family for those professional conversations.
Laura Dugger: My word. Thank you for giving us a glimpse into what that would actually look like. That definitely provides some laughs.
Shaunti, you already know that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:50:57]
Shaunti Feldhahn: So it's actually I wouldn't have been able to put it this way until this project. But my savvy sauce is curiosity. That's my encouragement for everybody is there is life-changing stuff that happens when you try to understand your spouse better in whatever the area is right, not just this area, but kind of recognizing and being able to look under the surface and being able to see like the vulnerable person underneath that confident exterior.
So understanding that you are trying to dig out, trying to investigate and actually, trying to speak to that inner person, you know, that tender heart that's on the inside, that is life-changing once you can do that.
Laura Dugger: That's so good. Shaunti, as always, you were such a cheerful and helpful and knowledgeable guest today. So thank you for being my guest.
Shaunti Feldhahn: Absolutely. It's such a pleasure to be with you. [00:52:08]
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:53:08] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:54:07] And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:55:12] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
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