227. Resolving Conflict in Marriage with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo
*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults
**Transcription Below**
Proverbs 15:1 (NIV) "A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger."
As co-hosts of the top marriage podcast in Apple Podcasts, the ONE Extraordinary Marriage Show, Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo speak to a worldwide audience about sex, love & commitment, and challenge every listener to make their relationship a priority. Their best selling book, The 6 Pillars of Intimacy, has transformed countless marriages around the world. This framework is simple, practical, and powerful. You’ll be inspired to look at your marriage through a new lens and be encouraged by its commonsense approach.
One Extraordinary Marriage Website
One Extraordinary Marriage Show
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
For couples who are not in destructive and abusive marriages, what are typical conflict styles and cycles?
What conflict have you had recently and how did you process through it?
What are common issues couples fight about?
Thank You to Our Sponsor: WinShape Marriage
Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:
146 Biblical Response to Emotionally Destructive Relationships with Leslie Vernick
190 Sex Series: Six Pillars of Intimacy with Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo
205 Power of Movement with Alisa Keeton (Revelation Wellness)
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:01] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: I am thrilled to introduce you to our sponsor, Winshape Marriage. Their weekend retreats will strengthen your marriage, and you will enjoy this gorgeous setting, delicious food, and quality time with your spouse. To find out more, visit them online at Winshapemarriage.org. That's Winshapemarriage.org. Thanks for your sponsorship.
Tony and Alisa DiLorenzo are my returning guests today. They love to impact marriages. Alisa recently wrote another book with Tony's contributions, and it's entitled, The 6 Pillars of Intimacy Conflict Resolution.
So we're going to hear about ways each of us can take action and grow in productive and healthier conflict resolution.
Here's our chat. [00:01:17]
Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Tony and Alisa.
Tony DiLorenzo: Hey, Laura. It's so great to be here again with you.
Alisa DiLorenzo: We're excited to be back.
Laura Dugger: Well, I'm going to add links back to your previous episode in the show notes, but in case anyone missed our initial time together in Episode 190, will you just share a bit about yourselves and the work that you get to do?
Alisa DiLorenzo: Absolutely. A little bit about Tony and I. We have been married now for 27 years. We have two children. We have an 18-year-old daughter and a 21-year-old son, and we've been blessed to speak into marriages for the last, oh gosh, almost 14 years now.
Tony DiLorenzo: Yeah.
Alisa DiLorenzo: Out of a lot of dysfunction in our own marriage, we went on a journey to really get radical about how marriage is done, to make marriage a priority, to understand all of these different facets of marriage, and have been just so blessed to impact thousands upon thousands of lives around the globe.
Tony DiLorenzo: Yeah. We always say it here: it's our desire to see you have the extraordinary marriage you desire. [00:02:22] So whenever we're sharing with the one family, that's who we call our audience, it's what can we do to help you have the extraordinary marriage you desire?
Laura Dugger: I love that. Back to that previous episode we did together, it was incredible just to hear how the Lord rescued both of you. And really that was intertwining your faith story with your marriage journey as well.
And as of today, like you said, you get to work with so many couples. So would you say it's normal for two people in a relationship to experience conflict?
Alisa DiLorenzo: Absolutely. Laura, I've had the privilege to coach somewhere in the vicinity of 500, pushing 600 individuals and couples over the last 10 years. And if there's been one consistent theme in every single coaching session I've ever had, it's that there's some source of conflict because husbands and wives are different, and how they see the world, how they perceive the world, how they receive the world is different. And when those differences collide, that's where you can have conflict. [00:03:25]
Tony DiLorenzo: And truth be told, having been married 27 years, known each other 29 years, conflict still arises, even in our own marriage. We work on this on the daily. And yet we have the tools now to overcome those conflicts quicker and easier.
Laura Dugger: Which is always such an encouragement. Do you want to share or elaborate a little bit further? Any even recent conflict that comes to mind for the two of you that was personal, but how you walk through that in a healthy way?
Alisa DiLorenzo: It's so funny that you asked that question, Laura, because I can sense the emotion. But I think one of the things that Tony and I have really worked on over the years is not letting the incident be-
Tony DiLorenzo: Like seared into our minds and our spirit and holding onto it. So when there's resolution and we let go of it. So it takes us a little bit to go, Oh, wait, what was that?
Alisa DiLorenzo: So we had an incident with that 18-year-old daughter. [00:04:23] But there's a dynamic there because I do think a lot of conflicts for couples revolve around parenting or the observation of a parent-child relationship.
Our 18-year-old, she's a senior in high school. She's in the midst of the whole college application search and all of the angst that comes with, where am I going next? And she had a week a few weeks ago where she was just... she was a little short.
Tony DiLorenzo: Snippy.
Alisa DiLorenzo: Snippy with her parents. She was interacting with me and I was addressing it in one way. But when she interacts with me and it gets to a certain level, Laura, Tony comes to the end of his rope. And so then not only am I dealing with our daughter, but then Tony and I are starting to have words because he doesn't necessarily... I can even feel him getting hot right now as I'm relaying the story.
If he doesn't like how she's responding, then he also starts to get involved. And so now I've got potentially conflict going on in sort of like a triangle mode.
Tony DiLorenzo: Right.
Alisa DiLorenzo: That's what it was.
Tony DiLorenzo: Which then creates conflict between Alisa and I because of the way she is handling it or I'm handling it. [00:05:26] And so then that gets in between us on how are we parenting and how should we move forward? And so, yeah, that was a bit of a mess.
Laura Dugger: But that's so relatable. I love how you point that out, the triangulation. And I'm sure so many conflicts in marriage come from parenting.
Tony DiLorenzo: Mm-hmm.
Laura Dugger: Also, you said that there are some tools that you have in your belt. So was there a tool that you use to resolve that in a healthy way?
Alisa DiLorenzo: For us, definitely. One of the things that we have come to realize over the years of studying marriage, working with couples, is that it's so important for both spouses to recognize how they process time. What I mean by that is there are going to be situations where one person is going to want to... Like, we have to take care of this right now.
I often refer to it in the book, The 6 Pillars of Intimacy Conflict Resolution, as that need for immediate resolution. [00:06:23] We need an answer. We need a solution. We need to do it right now.
And that person is often married to somebody who needs a little more time to process. They're the ones that want to withdraw, retreat, think through their thoughts. And so being able to hear and recognize for both spouses what's valuable in that moment, and this is what Tony and I do a lot of times, giving your spouse what they need. If they need resolution, being able to say, "Hey, give me 15 minutes. Let me think through it," or "give me an hour, and I'll come back to you." And that person who asked for time coming back to saying, "Hey, I thought this through. Here are my thoughts." And then being able to actually have a productive conversation on the other side of that.
Laura Dugger: I also just want us to be able to differentiate then between healthy conflict, like you've modeled for us, but then conflict that's actually abusive. Are there any markers to help us identify an abusive situation?
Alisa DiLorenzo: Well, I think it's really important as you start to see in our relationship, when you start to see those patterns of behavior that start to become used to either gain or maintain power and control. [00:07:30] So there becomes this uneven balance of symmetry in the relationship. You get into a place where there's humiliation, or you keep arguments going on late into the night and so we start talking about sleep deprivation. There's name-calling.
Tony DiLorenzo: A little man.
Alisa DiLorenzo: Yeah, you can get into a place where physically your space feels threatened and those types of things. That's where it's really crossing that line into an abusive and potentially dangerous situation.
Tony DiLorenzo: Yeah. And what we always say, Laura, God never made you to sit in that. I do not believe that we have a loving God who wants you to sit in that. And if you are in an emotionally, physically, sexually abusive relationship, please get help. There are abuse hotlines that you can jump on that allow you to stay anonymous. People can't find you. But do get help. Seek it out.
We are very adamant about that, Laura. When these situations even come up on episodes that we have on our podcasts, we always share this. [00:08:32] Because I do, and Alisa and I both believe that God has not called you to stay in a relationship where you are being belittled, manipulated, physically abused, or even sexually abused.
Laura Dugger: I couldn't agree with both of you more. I'll just add one more link to Leslie Vernick's episode as well. She had shared the difference between a disappointing marriage and a destructive marriage.
Tony DiLorenzo: Ooh, yes.
Laura Dugger: It's right in line with what the two of you are sharing. So for couples then who are not in destructive and abusive marriages, what are the typical conflict styles and cycles?
Alisa DiLorenzo: So when we talk about conflict styles first, most people immediately think of fight or flight. That's where when conflict starts, one person's like, "I'm out of here." That's the flight. Or the fight is like, "No, I'm staying in. I'm lacing up my boxing gloves. And here we go.
In the work that I've done with couples, I've been able to identify that there are actually two other styles that often show themselves. [00:09:36] One is freeze. And that's where the person just shuts down. They're not necessarily physically retreating like the flight might do but they're not engaged. It's literally almost like a paralysis in that situation when the conflict starts to manifest.
There's also a fourth style that I talk about in the book, and that's the fawning. That's like the people-pleasing. I'll say whatever you want me to say or I'll do whatever you want me to do just to make this conflict go away. So those are the four styles that generally come up.
When we start to talk about conflict cycles, really breaking this down came out of hundreds of coaching hours and watching clients. And I finally got to a point probably seven or eight years ago where I literally took a sheet of paper and a pen as I was in a client session and I started drawing this circle on the paper. And I'm like, "Okay, well, tell me..." And this is where it started. "Tell me where the conflict starts. Tell me how it starts. Tell me what the two of you experience."
And that's the first phase of conflict. Something triggers it. There is a catalyst. [00:10:37] There's a moment. There's a look. There's something gets brought up. There's a kid snapping, whatever it might be.
Tony DiLorenzo: Can I say, too, at that starting point, too, Laura, what may start the conflict isn't necessarily what you're arguing about. You or your spouse could be dealing with a myriad of other things that your spouse knows or doesn't know about. And this now has just started this conflict. It could be as much as the freezer door gets left open.
Alisa DiLorenzo: Has that ever happened in our house, Tony?
Tony DiLorenzo: Which has happened here. You know what I mean? It could be small things, though, Laura, and the conflict starts. But we have to be reminded there are stresses that are happening in us and in our spouse, there are situations emotionally, you know, mentally that we're dealing with at work, at home, with extended family, at church, wherever it may be. And the conflict starts. [00:11:38]
Laura Dugger: You bring up such a good point, because I'm even remembering back to graduate school. They gave us just a hopeful little phrase to think of when we were in sessions with clients. And if we're getting hysterical, it's usually because we're historical.
So that deep history, whether it goes back to attachment or other things from childhood or landmines from previous experiences with your relationship, I think you're really on to something there. So continue.
Alisa DiLorenzo: Yeah. So after the conflict starts, if it's not arrested or interrupted at that point in time, then the next phase is this escalation phase. And this is where one or both of you, you start to feel the blood pressure rising.
This is where a lot of people will start to feel those physiological effects. Like they might start sweating. They might start, you know, clenching their jaw, feeling the pit of their stomach.
Tony DiLorenzo: Sweating.
Alisa DiLorenzo: Yeah.
Tony DiLorenzo: I mean, they're just getting hot. I mean, there's so many different reactions that can begin to happen in each of us at this point. [00:12:37]
Alisa DiLorenzo: And yet at this point, you still could potentially interrupt it. You just kind of start having those thoughts of, oh, I know where this is going to go. You know, it's sort of that fine line. You can tell us it's escalating. A lot of people will even use that word. Like, I feel like I'm escalating. But that's just this upward arc of things are getting more intense in that phase.
After the escalation phase in the cycle, you get to what I affectionately refer to as the boiling point. You know, if you can imagine a volcano, this is when the volcano starts to spew. And whether one of you is loud and aggressive or one of you, you know, kind of turns into an iceberg and everything shuts down, this is that kind of point of no return.
It's where the words get said. It's where somebody might storm out of a room kind of in that flight stage. It's where the harshness, that destructiveness, that's where this can really come into play at the boiling point.
Tony DiLorenzo: Tone.
Alisa DiLorenzo: Tone is a big deal.
Tony DiLorenzo: Tone, timing of those words. They become more direct. They're just more pinpointed. [00:13:38] There's a pitch to them that you've heard and it's not a normal everyday voice that usually comes out of you.
Alisa DiLorenzo: So after the boiling point, there's usually some sort of cool down in that. And that's really where, you know, we might not be talking to each other. It might be referred to as walking on eggshells for some couples. It might be the silent treatment. Might be, you know, one person's out and then... I have a lot of couples who have a man cave. So somebody retreats to the man cave or the she shed or, you know, we go to our separate spaces. And there's just this coming back into a place of regulation of the emotions individually.
Tony DiLorenzo: I like to call this our time of space. We've hit the boiling point and now I just need some space to get my thoughts together to de-escalate, right? Like to come down from this boiling point. It's like having a pot on the stove. It starts off cold, you have the flame under it, it starts to boil, it's boiling, and then you turn off the flame and it comes back down. [00:14:48]
And I find that this is that time some of us, including myself, can sometimes just want to exercise or do something active. I need to move a little bit. And so this is that time where you're just cooling down, getting your thoughts back in order, what happened, thinking through what you said and maybe what was said at you.
Alisa DiLorenzo: And then the final stage is this place of either return to status quo where you kind of sweep things under the rug and you just start acting like you like each other again. Or it's a resolution. It depends on what the situation is and depends on who the couple is and how they handle things, which one of those two things surfaces. But getting into this place of saying, Okay, we're going to start doing life together again. We're going to start engaging. Couples will move through that at different speeds.
What I find is when a couple's had this buildup of all these historical grievances, they'll actually spin through that cycle a lot faster. [00:15:45] And they just keep going, jumping very quickly to the boiling point and then return to status quo, boiling point, status quo, boiling point, status quo. And that's really where you get into the destructive nature of conflict in a lot of marriages.
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Laura Dugger: And I'm guessing that even when you're pointing this out and you're slowing the couples down to reveal this cycle, I'm sure that's helpful in itself. But when you're meeting with those clients, are you trying to have them recognize the cycle or interrupt it? Or what are some ways, once they're aware of it, that they can start to make that a healthier cycle? [00:17:44]
Alisa DiLorenzo: Well, the first thing is, as in all things with ourselves, it's becoming aware of what our patterns of behavior are. It's very hard to interrupt something if you don't know what you're doing.
When I first start working with couples around their conflict cycles, it's, hey, the next time you two have a fight, I just want you to think through each one of those five phases and I want you to write down what happened there.
And so just that active process of, oh, well, this is when I started to roll my eyes because I thought you were going to bring that up again. And this is when my voice started to change because I was getting so animated. And this is when I was so mad at you and then I just needed to walk away. And then I was able to apologize. So being in that place where they're just aware of it. Because you can't interrupt something you don't know.
And so then as I work with couples, we're working backwards. What happens when conflict starts? What could either one of you, if I'm working with both spouses, do differently once you're aware of what the conflict cycle looks like for yourself and for your spouse? [00:18:48] And we do that at every phase to create more connection so that they don't feel like they've got the Grand Canyon in between the two of them whenever they're in conflict.
Laura Dugger: Alisa, I love how you mentioned the words, I'm sorry, in there too, because that is so powerful to be able to repair. I'm sure that's a huge part of it then.
Alisa DiLorenzo: Absolutely. You know, so much is gifted when there's an authentic "I'm sorry", when there is that genuine bid for repair in the relationship, not just the flippant, well, I'm sorry, whatever, you know, that type of thing. "But you know what? I've had time to actually process what happened. And I am sorry for my behavior. I apologize to you. I'm asking you to forgive me for the words I said or how I came across." When there's that genuine bid for repair, so much is gifted to a marriage.
Laura Dugger: It reminds me of that scripture, a gentle answer turns away wrath.
Alisa DiLorenzo: That's actually one of my most favorite scriptures, Proverbs 15:1. [00:19:52] When it comes to talking about conflict and whatnot, the soft answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
Laura Dugger: I love that. I always listen to podcasts. And so recently I was listening to one, I believe his name is Brant Hansen, who recently wrote a book about being unoffendable. He was pulling out the truth of that scripture and just saying it turns away wrath in the other person when you approach them with humility to seek forgiveness. But also your own wrath and anger dissipates. And that's why biblical principles are always the best. Right?
Tony DiLorenzo: Absolutely.
Alisa DiLorenzo: Well, because we feel the words that we speak and how they're spoken before the other person ever receives them. We experience them first. And so if we choose that soft answer, that is such a conscious choice on our side that can't help but impact the entire situation.
Tony DiLorenzo: Laura, you know, as Alisa shared, been married 27 years, and so by no means has our marriage been perfect all those years. [00:20:56] There was a time when... and this is just in the recent past, I'd say in the last two, three years now, definitely coming out of the pandemic type stuff that we all dealt with a lot of anger. I was facing that.
There was this point where I remember just everything Alisa said to me that I didn't agree with, the conflict started. And it escalated quickly, to no fault of Alisa's. It was really myself. I had to look at myself in the mirror and realize that there was some stuff that was happening that I wasn't addressing. And I remember just at one point in time, she finally just was very clear. And it's just like, "You have some anger issues going on right now, Tony, and I believe you need to get some help."
And it was just hearing that and acknowledging it that I was just like, "You know what? You're right." Because what Alisa just shared there and you did as well, I was the one who was really just stuck in this place. And I needed clarity. [00:22:09]
I went and got myself a coach who also does counseling, but we did it online. So coach on one side, counselor on the other, and just worked with him for a few months. And it was probably one of the best things I did because it really just changed that trajectory for myself.
Laura Dugger: Aw, Tony, I'm so grateful you shared that. Even from the last episode and this one, your vulnerability is so respectable. And I think we could learn a lot from your experience with that.
When you reflect back, what was most beneficial and even applicable to help change those patterns of anger?
Tony DiLorenzo: You know, for myself, I love coaches because coaches are all about being intentional and taking action. And so when I got to sit down with my coach, he really began to just lay out stuff. He heard me out. [00:23:10] Like we had to talk about what was going on, but he didn't sit there.
He began to listen to me and just go, "Okay, Tony, I want you to think about this." And he would lay things out for me and he would draw things out for me. Because sometimes even for myself, words after a while, they sort of just go over my head. But if you show me some diagram like what Alisa put together, even in the conflict resolution book with the conflict cycle, he gave me this diagram and he was just talking about it and how we're on that seesaw. Alisa and I are on that seesaw. And how am I treating her on that seesaw? Like it's a place to be fun. And where am I on that?
It just helped me to just see things differently. And we just work through different things each week until I begin to recognize and release some stuff. And we would go into things and like, what's going on this week? What's been tough? What's taking you to that boiling point? Let's address that. Is it family? Is it business? Is it church? Is it outside friends? [00:24:15] Is it family, you know?
And so just even releasing some of that stuff was helpful. It's not that I don't talk to Alisa about this stuff. Our emotional intimacy pillar is very strong. And yet just having a third party to just listen to some of the stuff was helpful because he listened and he gave me some stuff back where Alisa is my wife. And for her to take that in, she takes it in differently. And how we address it and possible get to resolution is different than me just walking in and just going, "This is what's going on, man. And I need some clarity."
Laura Dugger: I love how you draw that out, because you guys are that couple as well that can be the third party to someone else seeking help. I don't usually link to so many other episodes, but you're bringing so many connections about.
So going back, Tony, just how you just briefly mentioned that sometimes you work out to kind of decompress. Alisa Keeton, was a recent guest, with Revelation Wellness and she was teaching how our emotions get trapped in our body. [00:25:20] And that is such a healthy, God-given way to work them out. So I think that's a very practical takeaway that you shared.
Tony DiLorenzo: One of my favorites is I get on my bike. I'm a road cyclist. I've been riding since I was 14 years old, and I stopped at times. And then God calls me back and he's like, "Tony, get on your bike." I'm like, "Oh, God, but I'm not in shape anymore and I'm older now and I'm not the cyclist I used to be." And He's just like, "I don't care. Just get on your bike for an hour." And I've had so many moments of just riding my bike... just breakthrough happens. I have music in one ear and I'm just out there pedaling.
It's something I've done, like I said, since I was 14 years old so there's this familiarity with it, which just allows me to just be free from everything else. And God just speaks to me at times when I'm wrestling. And I can just come home and I'm like, "Alisa, I got the breakthrough. I know what we got to do here." It's just like boom, boom, boom. And it's like, Oh, yes.
Laura Dugger: That's powerful. [00:26:20] I think it's valuable to get to learn how conflict resolution is handled well. So what trends or lessons are you seeing in the healthiest couples?
Alisa DiLorenzo: You know, really what I'm seeing and what I'm equipping the couples that I work with is getting back to this place of two things. One is identifying what the actual problem is. As a society, Laura, we've gotten really comfortable being angry. It's socially acceptable to be angry. You can't look at any social media platform. You can't look at the news. You can't pretty much be anywhere without seeing people being angry. We've almost become numb as a society to conflict. It's everywhere.
But often it's person against person. We're not identifying the problems anymore. We're just fighting with somebody because they think differently or they've got different beliefs or whatnot. Instead of saying, hey, what's the actual, specifically in a marriage, what's the actual thing that's got us so upset? Are we upset that we got an unexpected bill? [00:27:20] Are we upset that, you know, one of our children is in a really difficult season of life right now? Are we upset that we haven't had time for one another?
So instead of being upset at Tony and going, "You don't love me" and all this kind of stuff, be like, "Hey, I've given this some thought. We haven't spent a lot of time together lately." That's a totally different conversation. And he's going to respond much differently.
So one is identifying the problem, what it truly is. And the second is getting curious again. You know, when your spouse comes at you and you can hear the emotion, instead of just going on the defensive and being like, "Oh, yeah, well, you're going to be angry at me? Guess what? I'm going to be angry right back at you and I'm going to raise you three octaves of yelling," we get to this place where we say, "Hey, like I can hear all that emotion. Let's just pause for a second, actually, you and I connect. What's going on here? What have we not been doing that actually makes us really successful? Let's identify that first."
And oftentimes that curiosity starts to create the connection. So that a couple can have resolution. [00:28:22]
Laura Dugger: Let's continue on with that, because a huge piece of conflict resolution is communication. So what are a few questions then to promote curiosity and friendship?
Alisa DiLorenzo: It's coming to this place of, you know, when you hear your spouse say something, say, "Hey, tell me more about how this is impacting you. Tell me more about what you see going on. What does this look like for you?"
Because we can get so wrapped up in our own, like, I just got to take care of the 22 things on my to-do list today and I've got three kids that are screaming at me and all this kind of stuff that we can lose sight that our spouse sees the world differently.
So stepping into that place of saying, "Hey, honey, I hear your anger. I can tell we're kind of ramping up for some conflict here." And even with a touch that you can grab a hand next to them, you're just like shoulder to shoulder, "Hey, what's going on with us?" Again, that soft word. Instead of meeting them with anger, that soft word with a question of, Hey, what's going on here, can often be that first interruption to say, you know what the other person feels cared for. [00:29:30] They feel seen. They don't feel attacked when they're voicing something. And it's enough to go, Oh, okay, this is the person that I fell in love with. This person still cares about me.
Laura Dugger: So there is some questions we can ask our spouse. And even you modeled kind of that soft tone. But I also appreciate in your book how you list questions that we can ask ourselves and help identify when we're most likely to experience conflict, even as simple as does fatigue play a role in our conflict. I would add to that, too. How many times do we get in a conflict because we're in a rush or we're hurried?
Tony DiLorenzo: Oh, gosh. I mean-
Alisa DiLorenzo: I think back to the years when our kids were little and it felt like we were going in so many different directions all at the same time. And I know those are hard years.
Tony DiLorenzo: But even now, like we get a couple of nights, two, three, four or five nights of restless sleep or just not getting the rest that we want and you feel that fatigue. [00:30:37] And then you get into your work day and you're just, go, go, go, go, go. And then you see each other at night and you're still fatigued. But now you have the stressors of the day and everything else that comes upon you. And then your spouse asks you something and you're like, "Why are you asking me that?" So it's getting to that root of the issue of like, why am I not even sleeping well right now? What's going on there?
And I love that you bring that up because fatigue is especially for those couples who do have younger children. We were having a fun laugh with our daughter last night because she used to try to come into our bedroom all the time. Eventually, Alisa and I got to a point where just like... because we were so fatigued and we were fighting with one another all the time. We finally just got to a point where, like, "There's a blanket, there's a pillow outside our door. Don't knock on that door. You can sleep there, honey." [00:31:28]
Alisa DiLorenzo: This is the one that's 18. So it's really funny to think back to when she was three or four. But we needed some way to interrupt her pattern so that we could continue to sleep and getting to that place. But being self-aware about how you individually do conflict changes how the two of you do conflict.
You know, you bring up that question on fatigue. Sometimes it's just time of day. Sometimes it's you got like work deadlines and things like that. And the more that you can communicate when you struggle with your spouse, the more the two of you can get on the same team to say, Hey, I know this week of...
I've got one coaching client. The husband's got board meetings the last week of every month. So we always know, you know, me being part of their team, that we do different strategies the last week of the month than the other three weeks for them to stay connected so that they don't fall into this place of roaring at each other.
Laura Dugger: That is so good and practical. And even the hormonal cycle, just if we're aware of that, you can go in with not only an understanding, but maybe a more strategic or active game plan. [00:32:35]
Alisa DiLorenzo: Correct.
Laura Dugger: One reoccurring scripture that comes up for The Savvy Sauce is James 1:22. It says, "Do not merely listen to the word and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says." And because our tagline here is Practical Chats for Intentional Living, we want to hear how you are applying these messages to your own life.
What action steps have you taken after hearing one of these podcasts that's improved your life a little bit? We would love to hear it. Please email us at info@thesavvysauce.com.
Well, what are some other helpful tools that anyone listening can try out to promote a healthier conflict style and resolution?
Alisa DiLorenzo: It's really important to change where the two of you have your conversations. You know, like a lot of couples will tell me in coaching, well, we fight about sex. And when I ask the question, where do you fight about sex, they say in our bedroom, because that's where we talk about sex is in the bedroom. [00:33:36]
So I'll challenge them, "Get out of the bed if you want to talk about sex. Get out of the bedroom if you want to talk about sex. If you always find yourself grumbling about finances at the dining room table, then go sit next to each other on the couch."
Changing up the location of where you have those repetitive arguments changes how the two of you interact with one another because everything's different about your environment. So making that shift, you become much more aware of everything around you and so you stay more present in the conversation. The more present you are, the less you go on autopilot. And so you have the ability to engage. You have the ability to answer. You have the ability to actually feel what's happening in the moment instead of just being like, "Oh, well, I know how this is going to go," and you throw up your hands and everybody does the same crazy dance.
Tony DiLorenzo: And one thing, too, it's how we position ourselves with our spouse. You know, when we're across from one another, we are typically in a fighting position. Our oldest, our son played football, so Alisa and I... he played D-line. [00:34:38]
So we look at this as he was on the defensive line, nose tackle, and he was across from the offensive line. And his whole goal was to sack the quarterback or the running back or whoever had the ball, right, and cause disruption. But his linemen, his defensive linemen who were on the same team with him were shoulder to shoulder.
And so how do you change that dynamic in your marriage? So if you're having the conversation around finances and it is at the dining room table and you are across from one another, is there a way that you guys can get shoulder to shoulder? Can you get on the same team? Can you see yourselves working together towards resolution with whatever it is in whichever pillar you're trying to strengthen?
But instead of staring each other down, you're now going, no, we're shoulder to shoulder. And our goal is as a team, we're going to attack that problem together.
Laura Dugger: That's a great visual. We have a common enemy and it's not one another. [00:35:40] I mean, ultimately it's Satan himself. And so I love that.
Are there any other ways that we can be proactive to lessen the unnecessary and unhealthy conflict in marriage?
Alisa DiLorenzo: It's really important, you know, if you start to see these patterns to get into this place to where you take inventory of yourself. What is upsetting to me? Why do I find myself in these repeated conflicts?
Tony mentioned the individual work that he did. Sometimes it's necessary when you see this... it's necessary to take the time to do the individual work, because a lot of patterns around conflict are patterns that are developed as you watch your parents as you're growing up, your childhood home. And you would reference this to some of the work and say that you've done in this place of what are those childhood traumas and whatnot?
And understanding what you witnessed, how your parents handled conflict, what the common things were that they fought about, what those inner vows were that you made to yourself about, like, I'm never going to fight like my mom or I'm not going to be like my dad, those types of things. [00:36:52]
Often, all of that shows up in your marriage, whether you want it to or not. So spending the time, and I walk through this in the book, spending the time to do that work allows you to address those things and make changes based on knowledge and not just this gut reaction that you might have said when you were 15 and you're like, I'll never scream at a man the way my mom does. But then you find yourself doing it.
Taking ownership of your life journey so that you're not a victim to it, but you're empowered to do conflict in a really healthy way because you have the awareness of where you've been.
Laura Dugger: Another piece of awareness, I think it's helpful, even in your first book, how you articulated the six pillars. So do you just want to give a quick flyover of those as well, because they are very much connected to conflict resolution.
Tony DiLorenzo: Yeah. So the six pillars of intimacy are emotional intimacy. That's your verbal, nonverbal communication. We have physical intimacy, and this is your physical touch that is nonsexual: Hugs, kisses, cuddling, that type of stuff. It can lead to sexual intimacy, which we'll get to here in a second. [00:38:03]
Next, we have financial intimacy. So this is us dealing with our money from putting a cash flow budget together every month to wills and trusts and everything in between that we have there. We then have our spiritual intimacy. How are we coming together around our shared beliefs and religious practices?
We have recreational intimacy. That is how are we having fun? What are the activities that we do together? These are the dates that we go on. But really, recreational intimacy is all about what do we do to have fun?
And then sexual intimacy is what it is. And yet, Alisa and I expand that to not only be sexual intercourse, but it is romancing, initiating foreplay, and your sexual intercourse.
Laura Dugger: Those are so helpful, because I think as you're talking about growing in self-awareness, that could be a great place to begin and take inventory with where are we at in each of these pillars. [00:39:07] And then your book dives into all of this healthy conflict resolution for those.
Alisa DiLorenzo: Absolutely. Because by default, when something isn't going well in a relationship, we kind of just say, well, the whole relationship's bad, right? It can be very difficult or challenging to say what's actually happening with us. Where the six pillars of intimacy framework has equipped so many couples around the world to be able to say, okay, it's not that we're all bad or it's all horrible. We're struggling in the area of our financial intimacy. And when you can name something, you can do something about it. And you feel empowered to take action around that and to resolve the conflicts there.
And that's where understanding the Six Pillars of Intimacy and being able to bring conflict resolution together it's a really powerful one-two punch, for lack of a better word.
Tony DiLorenzo: Because like you said, Laura, you can take inventory on each one of those. We've helped couples look at them and just self-assess. From a one to a ten, where are you on each of these? [00:40:07] And which of the six or two of the six that are your lowest? Those are what we call cracks. Like you have cracks in these pillars.
And if you can identify those, how do you strengthen them? And then this way, because if the conflict is continuously in that pillar, let's just say your financial intimacy pillar has massive cracks in it and you're in conflict all the time around your finances, well then, okay, how are we going to be intentional and take action? So that way we can strengthen that pillar. So we can strengthen our financial intimacy.
What are the solutions? Instead of us pointing fingers at one another, what are we going to do together to come up with solutions? I mean, Alisa and I were in $50,000 of debt. We understand what it means to be in debt and not have bills coming with the big red letters all across the front of it and everything. Like you're past due. Like we've been there.
And yet when we sat down, we started to go, Okay, we can fight about this and we can continue to argue about this, or we can start coming up with some solutions so we can strengthen this pillar. [00:41:11] That's when our marriage began to transform. This is back in the day. But that was the beginning of us going, wow, we can do things together when we come up with solutions.
Laura Dugger: I guess just as an umbrella over this entire conversation, what scripture can you both point us back to that communicates timeless truths for managing conflict resolution in a healthy way?
Alisa DiLorenzo: For me — we chatted about it at the beginning — I really do lean a lot on Proverbs 15:1. That soft answer turns away wrath. But I would encourage anyone listening, I've been doing... Girlfriend gave me a two-year study in the book of Proverbs. So every month I read through Proverbs.
You want to just spend some time getting right with biblical truths around conflict. Read through Proverbs regularly because there's so much language in there about foolish words and a foolish tongue and harsh words and all of this kind of stuff that you can't help but find yourself convicted by about every third scripture in Proverbs around conflict. [00:42:20]
Tony DiLorenzo: Mine's actually Ephesians 6:11. Because we got to put on the whole armor of God that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. And I think we need to put that on at times and realize that we live in the physical world, and yet we're dealing in the spiritual world as well. And sometimes we're going to look at our spouse and we're going to try to blame them for everything and yet there is a devil that is roaring and looking and going back and forth to and fro on this earth, looking where he can come in and cause conflict, where he can cause pain and disagreement.
And I believe if we do not put on that armor of God, if we're not in the word, if we're not praying, then we are susceptible. We are opening ourselves up to allowing this to come in and to take root into our hearts and into our spirits and our minds and take us off course of where God has called us to be when we stood before one another on our wedding day and said, I do.
Laura Dugger: You two offer so many resources that can help us do a deeper dive into this topic. [00:43:23] So can you share everything you have available for people to go to next after this conversation?
Alisa DiLorenzo: Well, I think, you know, specifically as we're talking about conflict, I did write a book called The 6 Pillars of Intimacy Conflict Resolution. Subtitle is A Secret to Breaking the Conflict Cycle in Your Marriage. This is the book that came out of all of those coaching sessions.
I wanted to be able to equip people who, you know, for one reason or another might not ever show up in front of me in a marriage coaching session and wanted them to be able to say, Okay, this is like having Alisa sit down and talk with us and walk us through. I always say that's probably the best first step if you're dealing with conflict in your marriage is to get your hands on this book. And don't just hold the book, actually read it and consume it. It's got a fabulous reddish-orange cover. It looks great on a bookshelf, but it's actually a whole lot better when you've internalized it.
Tony DiLorenzo: Yeah. And that's available everywhere, Laura. It is also in audiobook. So for those who are obviously listening to podcasts, just like Alisa and I, we do love to listen to books. [00:44:25] So we do have that. And Alisa and I both read that. So it's in our voice.
It's the greatest and I believe the best first step for those who are impacted by conflict in their marriage and possibly even other areas of their lives to learn and to put the tools into their marriage tool belt to go, Oh, we have a tool now that we can use when we hit this place and when we hit this wall in our marriage.
Also, if anybody would like, we have been podcasting now for over 14 years. You can find the One Extraordinary Marriage show on your favorite podcast app. Just search One Extraordinary Marriage Show and it'll pop right up for you there and just follow.
We have many of episodes covering conflict to sexual intimacy, emotional intimacy, in-laws, outlaws, vacation sex, you name it. We've talked about it. That is a weekly show that Alisa and I do and will continue to do because we believe that every time we get behind our microphones, we're impacting one marriage. [00:45:29]
Alisa DiLorenzo: Some of you might find that you're in a space where you need more individualized help. You've heard me mention throughout this conversation that I do offer marriage coaching. You can learn more about that at OneExtraordinaryMarriage.com.
Laura Dugger: Thank you so much for sharing that. I'm going to add all of those links in the show notes for today's episode to make it easy for everyone to take their next step. You two are already familiar. We're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so my final question for both of you, Tony and Alisa, what is your savvy sauce?
Alisa DiLorenzo: So, for me, this is the philosophy that weaves itself through everything that I do personally and with my coaching clients. It's being intentional and take action. Nothing changes in your life or in your relationships until you start to take action.
Tony DiLorenzo: Gosh, man, you took mine.
Alisa DiLorenzo: You bumped me to go first. [00:46:29]
Tony DiLorenzo: We're all about being intentional and taking action.
Alisa DiLorenzo: What's your second one?
Tony DiLorenzo: My second one is what can I do? I think when we find ourselves in a place where many things are happening around us, a lot of times we want to point fingers. And sometimes we need to just look ourselves in the mirror and go, what can I do? That's a great step to take because you can now seek our Lord to give you answers, wisdom, knowledge on what can I do in this situation where I'm at and hear his prompting and guiding.
Laura Dugger: I love it. Tony and Alisa, you're just both so in sync that you even shared the initial same savvy sauce. I love it. It was such a joy to get to connect with you both once again. So thank you for your hearts for marriage and thank you for being my returning guest today. [00:47:30]
Alisa DiLorenzo: We're honored. Thank you for what you do, Laura.
Tony DiLorenzo: Yeah. Thank you, Laura.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. [00:48:34] This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. [00:49:33] And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." [00:50:38] The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
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