Psalm 90:12 “Teach us to number our days aright, that we may gain a heart of wisdom.”

**Transcription Below**

Annie Chapman is the author of “The Mother-in-Law Dance: Can Two Women Love the Same Man and Still Get Along?” In addition to being an author of many books,Annie is wife to Steve, mother to 2 adult children, and grandmother to 6. Her perspective as both a mother-in-law and daughter-in-law brings unique clarity to this discussion.

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The Mother-in-Law Dance: Can Two Women Love the Same Man and Still Get Along? by Annie Chapman

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When listeners heard we were going to be discussing the mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship, we got a lot of awesome questions and comments! We want to share a few of those with you today.

3 Things Daughters-in-Law Appreciated:

Most Common Response: Offering help with the grandkids. One listener wrote in: “My mother-in-law loves my kids so deeply and intensely. She is incredibly generous with them (and us)! She is also beyond gracious and giving with her time. She will, at least a couple of times a year, have them overnight for an extended time. This allows me and my husband to travel (often abroad) with ZERO concern/worry about the kids’ wellbeing."
“My mother in law is really thoughtful, like extremely thoughtful. She remembers things I mention and then at Christmas or my birthday will buy me a book about it or a gift.”
“Since we got married she has always (subtly) acknowledged me as the most important woman in my husband’s life and never felt threatened by me or tried to assert her role. She is nothing but supportive of our relationship and our family which is huge for us. She also has a very strong relationship with the Lord and I know she is daily in prayer for our family and that means so much to me.”

3 Things Mothers-in-Law Appreciated:

Number One response was how the wife treated her son (seconded by her love of her grandchildren), such as saying my daughter-in-law “keeps a clean home for my son and grandchildren.” or I appreciate how “my daughter-in-law either vocalizes or shows in front of me her love and appreciation for my son.” and “She deeply loves my son"
“I like when she brings a meal to show thanks for the regular babysitting we do.”
“I like when she keeps me in the loop about the grandkids and how they are doing”

3 Challenges for a Daughter-in-Law:

“Honestly, I often find myself frustrated at the way she parented (or didn’t parent) her kids, which directly impacts the way my husband interacts/reacts/acts with me and the family in general.”
“She inserts herself, her worries, and her opinions in our lives a little too much. Like when we were moving, she wanted to keep planning and thinking through things with me, things that my husband and I needed to decide. Not her."
“I get frustrated being told when and where I will be, instead of being asked…such as “we’re doing Easter on Easter Sunday this year.” (with the understanding that yes, you’ll be there, and you don’t have a say in it.) Not only will I be more likely to make it work, but I’ll also have a better outlook and attitude about being there.”

3 Challenges for a Mother-in-Law:

“The general bad rap that mother-in-laws automatically have”
"Feeling like we are only good for babysitting.”
“When I do speak, it is sometimes misinterpreted and misunderstood by them. When I help in ways that I think is being helpful they perceive my help as an insult. For example, they think that I don’t think they are doing a good enough job as a mother or housekeeper. My motive is that whatever help I can give them, any job I can do for them (any cleaning or picking up, etc…) is something they don’t have to do if I do it for them which i think would give them more time to do other things. My mother did that for me and I regarded her as help I could depend on. I always welcomed my mother’s help.”

Encouragement from one mother-in-law to another: “I found being a good mother in law to be one of the biggest challenges I’ve ever faced. I’ve learned so many things too late! And the learning process continues…Say as little as possible and most of the time don’t speak at all, just listen. Don’t voice your opinion or give an idea or a suggestion ever never ever ever ever! Even if you disagree with what they’re saying or what they are doing. BE QUIET EXCEPT validate what they are saying and what they are doing with positive words of encouragement and praise and most of all show them kindness, love, patience, compassion, and be an understanding, sympathetic listener."

Encouragement from one daughter-in-law to another: “Look for the heart behind the comment. I think a lot of mother-in-law’s give unsolicited advice because they’re proud of how their son turned out, and they want to be relevant and helpful to their daughter-in-law. If we were smart we would ask for the advice because they have wisdom that we need.”

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: Today's message is brought to you by Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Stay tuned for insider tips we're going to share during the episode.

The topic of the mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship was so popular that we decided to bring back a returning guest. Annie Chapman is the author of The Mother-in-Law Dance, and she joins us again today to answer some questions that you, the listeners, wrote in.

I want everybody to know that the people who did write us questions truly had a lot of good to say about their mother-in-law and daughter-in-law, but there were also some areas where they got confused by the other person's actions.

Today, we hope to bring clarity and encouragement to the in-law relationship in your life. Here's our chat.

Welcome back to the Savvy Sauce, Annie.

Annie Chapman: Well, I'm glad to be back.

Laura Dugger: We're so glad to have you join us again. If anybody missed our previous interview, can you tell us a bit about yourself? [00:01:20]

Annie Chapman: Well, I am a wife of going on 44 years. I have a daughter and son that are grown and six grandchildren, which is the reward for not killing your children when you want to when they're teenagers is they may grow up and reproduce and give you some incredible grandchildren. That's what we have.

Laura Dugger: That's wonderful. You wrote this incredible book called The Mother-in-Law Dance, and I've never seen a resource quite like it. You share so many stories that illustrate the misunderstandings that can often take place in this relationship. So do you mind just sharing a few of those stories or examples with us today?

Annie Chapman: Well, I'll be glad to. The one that precipitated the actual idea of writing this book was a friend who went to her son and daughter-in-law's house and found that they had not prepared for her visit. She felt slighted that the bed wasn't made and there was no food. [00:02:21]

And then to top it off, the daughter-in-law was involved with a mother-daughter event at church. She just assumed but since this girl's mother lived, you know, out of state and she was right there that she would invite her mother-in-law to go with her, and she didn't. And it hurt her feelings so bad that I saw her at the airport when she was coming home and she said, "I will never go back to that house again."

It made me so sad the relationship between a mother-in-law and a daughter-in-law can be so fractured and sometimes over little or nothing. but still fractured. and the peace of that whole family really depends on whether that mother-in-law and daughter-in-law get along, because if they're at odds with one another, it alienates the son.

This is what I say, Shame on any mother who makes her son choose between her and his wife, and shame on any son that does not choose his wife. It is fragile. And that's why we have to work so hard to make the mother-in-law, daughter-in-law relationship strong and worthwhile, because it is. [00:03:30] We need to keep it going so that there'd be peace in the family.

Laura Dugger: You have shared it all from such a God-honoring perspective. This may be a little off-topic, but is it right that you studied at Moody Institute?

Annie Chapman: Yes, I graduated from there in Home Missions. I didn't even know what that meant. I originally studied music. We didn't have a piano and I wanted to learn so I made a piece of cardboard and drew the keys on it and I actually learned to play the piano on cardboard.

So when I went to Moody to study music, and these kids had had piano lessons since they were three, I couldn't cut the music program. So I switched to home missions, which it's missions that are designed to be at home. Just any mission work that is done within the confines of the continental U.S. is considered home missions.

Laura Dugger: Interesting. Well, thank you for sharing that. We'll get back to this topic of the relationship between a mother-in-law and daughter-in-law. It was so popular, we actually gave our listeners a chance to write questions they had about their relationship with their in-law. [00:04:36] We're going to include five of those from both perspectives.

So let's start with questions from the perspective of the mother-in-law. The first one wrote, "Is it biblical to give advice only if asked? And does conventional wisdom say this is the best path to take?"

Annie Chapman: I believe you keep your advice to a minimum. It works both ways. I have given advice and learned to regret it, and I have taken advice and learned to regret it. So yes, I believe we keep our advice to a bare minimum.

I don't know that it's a place for a mother-in-law to teach the daughter-in-law. I know there's a lot of unmothered and unmentored young women out there. I believe that has to be only by invitation and serious invitation, where you just don't see an opening and so you decide to share all your wisdom. I think it has to be invited. [00:05:36]

Now, maybe not any other relationship, but there's something about the mother-in-law, daughter-in-law, that is so... I keep coming back to the word "fragile". I just don't think that to give advice readily is a wise thing to do.

Laura Dugger: So even if the mother-in-law is very wise and maybe has some wonderful knowledge to share, it wouldn't be wisest for her to offer that without the daughter-in-law approaching her and clearly asking. Is that right?

Annie Chapman: That's exactly what I'm saying. I just think it's a real mistake because even if you start out and she likes what you're saying, that point when it comes that she disagrees, I don't think it's smart. But let me just add this. This is where it says older women are to teach the younger women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be keepers at home, you know, be sober-minded and all that.

I believe that maybe that mother-in-law can teach a different young woman, but there should be a different older woman teaching that to that daughter-in-law. Do you know what I'm saying? [00:06:43]

Laura Dugger: Oh, that makes a lot of sense.

Annie Chapman: Yeah, there's definitely room where young girls and women need to be taught by older women. I just don't think it's the mother-in-law that should do it.

Laura Dugger: Another mother-in-law wrote in: "What healthy tips do you have for establishing expectations early on regarding holidays and special occasions?"

Annie Chapman: I believe that it helps for them to work together. That's what happened with us. My mom and Steve's mom lived nine miles apart in West Virginia. So when we went home for holidays we went home to both families. That sounds really convenient and good, except what happens when both of them want the same day.

So we put that into the hands of my mom and my mother-in-law and asked them to work that out between them. So then it left us kind of doing what our moms wanted us to do.

But then in our situation, our kids live in town, their in-laws live out of town. Here's where I have to really grow up. And I found out I can't be pitiful and powerful at the same time. So I relinquish, by my will, those holidays and we have learned to celebrate occasions and not dates. [00:08:03]

Sometimes we don't even get to have a Thanksgiving because both of the kids go to their in-laws and I just don't have the heart to make him eat another turkey, you know, just because it's my turn. You know, again, it comes back to being willing to serve and to be humble about it and not demand your own way.

You know, Philippians 2, "Regarding the other's needs as more important than your own, not looking out for your own personal interest, but for the interest of others." And then it says, "Let this attitude be in you that was in Christ Jesus, and who was a greater servant than Jesus?" So if we're Christ followers, it's in the blueprint how we're supposed to treat each other.

Laura Dugger: Another one writes in, "How do I navigate the difficulty that comes with a daughter-in-law favoring her own mother, which I know is natural?"

Annie Chapman: Oh yeah, of course she is. You have to accept that, that I don't want to take my daughter-in-law's... the place of her mother. I don't want to do that. [00:09:12] I had a situation where I was kind of confronted with that at my daughter's wedding.

You know, when you're taking pictures and my daughter, just such a wonderful young lady, and she's standing there and her mother-in-law was on one side and I was standing there, and she says to the photographer, "Take a picture of me and my two moms." Well, I wanted to throw up in my mouth at that moment. "Hello, your two moms? Did she nurse you through measles? Did she pay for your braces?" I just, in an instant, was like, my back just kind of went up. Two moms? I'm the mother. Let's get that straight.

But I had a choice at that moment to make a scene, make Heidi feel bad, make a point. I chose to step up and Heidi put her arm around both of us and we both smiled for the camera. And I'm so glad we did because that was bringing her mother-in-law into the fold. And I could have pushed her out in a moment but I chose not to do that. And that picture always reminds me that was a good choice that day to smile and to say, "It's okay, she does have a mother-in-law. It's not her mother, but that was Heidi's way of bringing her in into her love circle at that moment." [00:10:40] And so we have to choose.

Now, Heidi ended up having the most amazing mother-in-law. She is so thoughtful. She is so generous. The three grandkids right this minute are in Atlanta with that mother-in-law. I'm glad that Heidi did that that day, and I'm glad that somehow I found the heart to let Heidi do what she needed to do to bring that mother-in-law into that relationship.

So I don't know if that answers the question. I think mothers are, of course, they're special, but to acknowledge that there's another woman there that can be very special to that daughter, I think is important too.

Laura Dugger: I don't know the background of who this is or what their story is, but let's just say that this mother-in-law is writing, maybe her daughter-in-law doesn't acknowledge her and only favors her own mother. What encouragement would you offer that mother-in-law?

Annie Chapman: Oh, yeah. How hurtful can that be? Especially if the mother-in-law wants to be that special person to the daughter-in-law and wants to have a loving relationship with her and she feels pushed aside or ignored. [00:11:54] Yeah, I ran into that. I ran into that when I surveyed for the book.

There's just hardly anything more painful than to watch someone that feels rejected by a daughter-in-law. I would say send cards, keep saying nice things. You know, don't be too pushy. But make sure that that door is always open, that when the daughter-in-law is willing to embrace the mother-in-law and let her in, you just have to tread pretty lightly.

I'm hoping that the son is sensitive to this. You know, the son, the man, he is the key. He is the problem and he is the bridge to this relationship between these two women. You know, the subtitle, Can Two Women Love the Same Man and Still Get Along? Yes, but you know what? That boy in between, that man in between those two women can play a vital part.

And if I was the mother and my son was allowing me to be disrespected, that would hurt me worse than if the daughter-in-law was not being nice to me. So the key to that relationship really does lie in the son. And he is the bridge that should be working to make sure that his mother feels honored and his wife feels chosen. [00:13:23]

It's a sad thing. I wouldn't even know. I guess you just have to try to chip away at that iceberg and do it with kindness. You're not going to do it with confrontation. I'll give you that. I'll tell you that one. If you think you're going to go to the daughter-in-law, dress her down and berate her for not treating you right, that's not going to be the right approach. I think you've got to go and chip away at the iceberg and use some honey to do it.

Laura Dugger: I love that.

Some of you have reached out to find specific books or resources that we have mentioned in one of our episodes. That's why I'm so excited to let you know about our new Resources tab. When you visit thesavvysauce.com, you can now click on our new tab called "Resources". There you will find all the resources we've ever mentioned on all the episodes of The Savvy Sauce. And when you purchase a resource from that list, you actually support our work at The Savvy Sauce.

We also spend a lot of time preparing show notes for every individual episode, so you can still access the websites, scripture, and recommended resources when you click on any individual episode. We hope you take advantage of these features so you can apply all that you've learned.

Another mother-in-law wrote in, "What are the most helpful boundaries that you recommend?" [00:14:40]

Annie Chapman: I think the telephone. I think making sure that, you know, that there's an understanding. This has happened in our family before where my daughter and I have gotten together and we've said, let's do, you know, a birthday dinner, say. Let's do it at this time, and let's do it at this place. You contact the daughter-in-law. I'll do that a lot of times, and that's not fair to my daughter-in-law, where I'll have my daughter running interference. You call her and tell her what we're thinking.

Well, that usually doesn't go very well. My daughter-in-law wants to be in the loop, and she doesn't want to be told what's gonna happen. She likes to be asked. She likes for me to be the one that clears the way with her. So, you know, that's just plain manners. And boy, is it hard to... You can be in-laws for 30 years, 40 years and, you know, one misstep and you mess things up, who knows for how long.

But the important boundary is communication. You call before you come over, you call and you talk things over. And you just keep that line of communication open. That's the only thing I can think of is you just treat each other with manners. Wouldn't that take care of most boundaries if you just treat each other like you'd treat a friendly stranger?

We're nicer to people at the grocery store that we don't know, we say please and thank you, and hello than we do sometimes our family members. [00:16:18]

Laura Dugger: And as our fifth question from a mother-in-law, she writes in, "I'd love to know how I can be more helpful to them in general." And I think she's meaning her son and daughter-in-law. "I'd especially like to know if they'd appreciate more help with their kids." What are your thoughts?

Annie Chapman: When our son and daughter-in-law didn't have children, it was hard to get them to come to see me. But when they got three kids, it's amazing how much they want to see me and how much they want help. And my saying is, being needed is almost as good as being wanted.

I think as grandmothers and mothers-in-law, sometimes we might feel needed more than we feel wanted. But, you know, take what you can get. I would ask if your kids want to have help with the kids. I don't know that my daughter or my daughter-in-law has ever turned down a date night. You know, I'll keep the kids and you all can go out on a date. [00:17:21] Or how about if I keep them overnight and you can have the morning and go out for breakfast. I've never been turned down for that.

So all you got to do is ask, you know, if they need more help. Now, if they think that you're undermining them when the kids are with you, if they think the kids are exposed to something they shouldn't be exposed to. I know one mother-in-law smoked. Her son didn't want the kids to come to her house. Do you choose the cigarettes or do you choose the grandkids?

There's reasons why sometimes people will put up boundaries and say the kids can't come over. Maybe you have people that stop by that they don't trust. So you've got to really look at it. If my kids don't trust me with their children, why? And if it's just that they don't know that I would love to keep them, then tell them and just work that out.

We're from Tennessee, so we have guns in our house. My husband is a hunter and my daughter-in-law does not like firearms at all. [00:18:27] So when she comes, everything's locked up. And when the kids are here, everything's locked up, everything is put away. And she'll ask, "Are the guns put away?" I said, "Yeah, they're in a safe. The only way they can get them out is my fingerprints." Okay.

But she said, "I'm sorry, I have to ask." In order for her to feel comfortable with the kids being here, that's her baseline — she needs to know that they can't get into any guns or anything. So you have to look and be practical about that.

Now, what if we said, hey, we believe in the Second Amendment and we want our firearms out and stuff. Well, our grandkids aren't going to get to come stay with us. If that's the hill we're going to die on, we're not going to get our grandkids. So you just have to work with each other. Tell them you'd like to keep the kids. Find out if there is a reason they don't want you to keep the kids and fix that if you can.

Laura Dugger: Those are great examples. And now we're going to flip it to the other side, to the perspective of the daughter-in-law. So one writes in and she said, "Can you describe an appropriate relationship between a daughter-in-law and mother-in-law?" And she goes on to give us a little bit of context. She said, "How necessary is it for me to pursue a growing relationship with my mother-in-law? I'm content with our current relationship and honestly prefer to keep a bit of distance." [00:19:47]

Annie Chapman: Well, that happens. You know, not everybody is all lovey-dovey. And I wonder if the mother-in-law is just as content. You know, if there's not conflict there. I would kind of take a cue from my husband. He might know maybe there's reason to have a little distance there.

But you know, as long as they're cordial and kind to one another, maybe acknowledge birthdays or, you know, where they're not just ignoring each other and being mean, but maybe they don't want to spend a whole lot of time together. There's a lot of people in my life that I can be nice to and cordial, even family members, but you don't particularly want to spend the afternoon sitting around the pool with.

So I guess there's other people... If the mother-in-law and father-in-law are okay with that, if the husband's okay with it, then I guess you keep a nice cordiality about it. But maybe not have to be, you know, lean in so far to be extremely close. [00:20:49]

Laura Dugger: You're saying it's not biblically mandated that you need to pursue a growing relationship with your mother-in-law at all times?

Annie Chapman: I think when that happens, it's wonderful. To say that it's always going to happen... This is what I found when I did these surveys. There wasn't a whole lot of ambivalent feelings between mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law. There was either "I have the best" or "do I have a chapter for you". It was like hot and cold. I didn't find a lot of just lukewarm relationships, but I'm sure that there are.

And if this is one of those lukewarm that, you know, kind of take it or leave it, I don't know that I would press in too far because usually people do things for a reason. And if there's distance, there may be a reason for that. And if it's not a conflict, but it's just kind of an ambivalence between them, maybe you go with that.

Laura Dugger: I think that makes a lot of sense. The next question is from multiple daughters-in-law, so we're going to combine it because they were both in different situations. They write, "What are some guidelines for the recommended amount of help to expect if you are raising grandchildren close to your mother-in-law? And then the same thing when you live far away from your in-laws." [00:22:11]

Annie Chapman: This was a very interesting part I found as I researched for the book. There were grandmothers who wanted to be completely hands-on every week. Myself, this is what I do. Every Tuesday I have my daughter's three. They spend the night. I wash their hair, I give them baths, I send them home in clean clothes, take them to their music lessons, and then deliver them at noon... Because they're homeschooled, we can do this. Deliver them at noon on Wednesday.

And the kids, they say their favorite day of the week is Tuesday because they get to do this. It's a lot of effort on my part. I pay them to practice their musical instruments. Thus, my 13-year-old granddaughter is an incredible violinist. The 10-year-old can play the mandolin, and the 6-year-old plays the drums. We have children following different musical tastes. But I do this, and I love it. [00:23:15]

I have friends who, if you told them they were going to have to give up two of their days, would say, "Hey, I raised my kids. I don't want to do that." I also take my son's children on Fridays and they spend the night Friday nights and we deliver them sometime on Saturday.

It's a gift that I give my children that I'm willing to give. Not every grandmother wants four of her days. occupied with grandkids. And you can't fault the mother-in-law if she doesn't want to keep them all the time. When my husband is gone, when I have the kids, I always say, they're going to cry harder at my funeral than they'll cry at yours. Because how do they know us unless they spend time with us?

So what do we expect? I don't think you can expect that out of the grandmothers and grandfathers, but I think you can appreciate it and show appreciation when they're willing to do it. If you ask and they say no... I mean, I know personally a grandmother who does not want to keep her grandkids. It's just her choice. And she said, "I raised my kids. I'm not raising someone else's." It's a choice she's made. [00:24:26]

Now, it's not a choice that I want to make. But the word in that question that catches me is "expectation". What can I expect? And I think maybe that's the problem, is we shouldn't expect, we shouldn't assume. We should offer. And if it's accepted, be grateful for that.

Now, as far as far away, you know, that's a whole different animal of how you relate to your grandkids. I'm so glad that there's Skype and there's ways to keep in touch. Heidi's mother-in-law lives out of town, and she's got her grandkids this week for a week, and she does this at least a couple of times a year.

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.

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Laura Dugger: The next daughter-in-law wrote, "How much should you talk to your mother-in-law about issues in your relationship? It seems like tricky waters. You don't want to rail on her beloved son, but she also has a lot of insight into him and his behavior." [00:26:35]

Annie Chapman: That's an easy question for me to answer. You don't criticize your husband to his mother. I think that's a real mistake. If you need help as a wife, there are counselors, there's people to talk to. I don't think you criticize her son. Because in a real sense, it's not criticizing her son, it almost feels like you're blaming the mother. If you criticize him, she feels blamed. If you praise him, she takes the credit.

So I just think it's a real mistake. For one thing, she can't help what he's doing. Her mommy days are over. He is not her baby. He is that woman's husband. And so to burden that mother with information that she can't do anything about, especially if they want her to butt out and keep her nose out of their business, to tell her things that will only compound that and hurt her.

If the wife is expecting the mom to go and chastise the husband for doing certain things, she's expecting that mother to start mothering him again and then he is again the child. I don't think that's a good situation. So I would say if you can't say something nice about her son, don't say anything at all.

Laura Dugger: The next one writes in and says, "Is it biblical, this idea of spoiling the grandchildren and then giving them back to the parents?" [00:28:09] She says, "I believe it's more biblical to ally together for a greater good. Can you provide any wisdom here?"

Annie Chapman: I don't think that it's the job of the grandparents to make the job of the parents more difficult. For some reason, our grandkids always behave better with us than they do their parents. And my daughter-in-law asked me that one day. She said, "Why don't they cry when they're with you? Why don't they demand when they're with you?" I said, "We're not the prize. Your attention is their prize. They're just used to a different way here."

When my grandkids start to fuss and cry at my house, they call me Didi, I say, "At Didi's house, there's only love and happiness. Let's see smiles." I don't even let them think that they're allowed to be mean at Didi's house or have fights or anything. It's like, "Oh, that's not what we do here." Well, when they go home, it's a whole different setting. [00:29:09]

And so I don't want to spoil them, but I do want them to have good memories of being at our house. I want there to be joy and happiness.

The way I look at it, a parent's job is to create and develop and build character in their children, because you're building little temples where God wants to dwell. That's the definition of parenting. The definition of grandparenting to me is making wonderful memories.

Now, that's a different skill set than building temples where God wants to dwell. Of course, we come alongside and we don't tear down what the parents are doing. We want to add to it, but I want memories, good memories when they come to my house.

We do things a little differently here. I pay the children. I said I paid them to practice their musical instruments. I also pay them to memorize scripture. [00:30:12] And I tell them what chapters. They don't get to memorize one of the short Psalms. They've memorized Psalm 91. They've memorized 1 Corinthians 13, Colossians 3, different passages. I pay them to do that because I want God's Word in them.

Now, that's not something necessarily that their parents can do. But I can do it. And they want money so they do memorize. And I do pay them for practicing their instruments. The other day, I said, "Y'all are breaking the bank because I had to pay them so much money because they're doing such good things."

So I feel like I am contributing to them. But my job is not to raise them. My job is to let them enjoy life at Didi and Papa's house, and I pay them to have fun.

Laura Dugger: You sound like such a dream. This is so wonderful. I love that you're still allying with them for the greater good because your way of making memories, you're still pointing them to scripture and different things. Can you give more examples of what it looks like for the grandparents to tear down the temple? [00:31:24]

Annie Chapman: We want them to have a unique and a fabulous experience when they come to our house, but we want that to build on what the parents are doing. My grand-girls, their dad has set a rule that until they have read their Bibles and practiced their musical instruments, they're not allowed to have any screen time.

You know, when they want to look at my iPad or my phone, they're pretty self-policed, you know, because they know... I'll just say, have you done what your dad asked you to do? Have you done your Bible and your music? And if they say yes, then I say, what do you want to see on the screen? It's usually they want to look at American Girl dolls and so I'll let them do that. And then there's a time restriction.

The parents have set these rules, which I appreciate because I don't want their faces stuck in a screen all the time here too. I want them to do puzzles. I want them to do art. [00:32:26] Steve's a wonderful artist and for a whole year of homeschool, he did art class with them. They don't have time to sit and watch television and stuff like that when they're here because we have a lot of other things. I say, "You can do that anytime. I want us to do this."

And now in the mornings when they wake up or after they get their work done, if they want to watch a VeggieTale, that's fine. But no, my job is not to undo what their parents have done. It's to build on it. I don't feel like I have to replicate everything their parents are doing, but I definitely want to build on to what they're doing.

Laura Dugger: Thank you for that clarification. And the final question from a daughter-in-law's perspective, she says, "What are some practical ways to honor a mother-in-law even when you as the daughter-in-law feel disrespected?"

Annie Chapman: Oh, isn't that a sad question? What an incredible daughter-in-law that she's thinking in those terms. [00:33:25] I have several examples in the book of women like this. I would encourage her to get the book and read it because I think she can find a lot of different ideas and things she can do.

I have a chapter called Dance Lessons and it's things that women have done, both mothers-in-law and daughters-in-law, to build that bridge, to make each other feel loved and respected.

But for this daughter-in-law who doesn't feel respected, but she wants to make her mother-in-law feel good, that says a whole lot about her. Cards and calling her. My husband calls his mom a lot. But I can always tell when I call her, it's a different experience for her. And even after 44 years, we still are very careful to show each other love and respect.

So, for me to call her when it's not my husband calling her, to check on her, I always... when we go see her, I always go. She's two hours away, could easily be just my husband to go see his mom. I make the effort to go. I always take her. I make cookies. She likes oatmeal cookies. She likes banana bread. [00:34:38] I take all kinds of things like that. And when she's here, I always have honey buns and I have the foods that she likes. But it's just the little things.

So if this daughter-in-law is not feeling respected, but she wants to show love, which I would say, what a wonderful way to love her husband is to show respect to his mother, whether she's a stinker or not. She's loving her husband when she does that, because I feel that way when I do for my mother-in-law. It's just another way for me to love my husband. She can do that with acts of kindness.

Laura Dugger: This time today has been so helpful. What is one hopeful story that you would want to leave with us today?

Annie Chapman: There's a story in the book that I really appreciate, and it was a woman who lived next door to her mother-in-law for many years. The mother-in-law was never really kind to her. In fact, the daughter-in-law said that one Christmas she got binoculars for Christmas because she wanted to spy on her, make sure that no one was coming and going from her house. [00:35:42]

She said, I never gave my mother-in-law ever a reason to distrust me. But she had had such a rough life. Her husband had cheated on her, so she assumed that everyone was like that. She said, "I just tried so hard to love her. And then when it came down to the end, she said, she had friends that would say, "Well, don't take her to the doctor. Don't do for her. She's never done anything for you." And she said, "Yeah, but she doesn't have anybody else to take care of her."

And that daughter-in-law, regardless of how the mother-in-law had been in the past, to the very end, she was so kind to her. And she said when it came down to the end, she never was sure that the mother-in-law ever truly loved her. But she said at the end, she could look that mother-in-law in the face and say, "I am so glad that I was your daughter-in-law because you've taught me so many things." [00:36:41]

And she said one of the things she didn't say to the mother-in-law is "You've taught me how to never treat my daughter-in-law like this". But somehow she was able to keep kindness, she was able to keep consideration and helpfulness and to serve that mother-in-law up to the very end regardless.

I think I came away admiring her because she didn't do that out of weakness. She didn't treat her mother-in-law nice because she was intimidated by her. She did that out of strength and deliberately. I want to be that kind of person.

I have not been challenged in that way. I have a wonderful mother-in-law. Were we perfect? No. Did we get on each other's nerves from time to time? Yeah. Did we say it? Hardly ever. And that's the kind of person I want to be. I want to make sure I'm a good in-law to my daughter-in-law. Do we get on each other's nerves? Yeah. Do we talk about it? Mm, sometimes. Does it hurt my feelings? Uh-huh. [00:37:47] But I want to be able to end my life and say, I mirrored and I showed Jesus to the people that I love the most.

Laura Dugger: I love that. Thank you for sharing that story. Our listeners know we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And now as we conclude, we would love to hear your wise and practical tips. So please share with us, what is your savvy sauce?

Annie Chapman: My savvy sauce kind of emanates from a chapter in the Bible I've kind of been living in this spring. It's Psalm 90. I didn't know Moses ever wrote a psalm, but he wrote a psalm and it's Psalm 90. He wrote it after his brother Aaron and his sister Miriam had died and he was facing his life.

There's some familiar passages in there. The one that says that we may have 70 years, 80 by strength, a thousand years in the sight of God is like a day or watching the night, which is three or four hours. [00:38:48] But then there's a verse that I've been really contemplating. It says, Teach me to number my days aright, that I might gain a heart of wisdom.

Well, I have mulled that over and chewed on that verse. And for the longest time, I thought, teach me to number my days aright. And I kind of centered on the word "number". So I put 365 times 70. Neither of my parents lived to be 80. So I said, Well, maybe I'll be closer to 70. And I subtracted how old, I ended up with like 1,200 days. And I thought, wow, that's not very happy thought, you know, teach me to number my days aright. Okay, I'm gonna die. That's what I came up with.

One night I was sleeping and the Lord spoke to me in my sleep because I was really contemplating that verse. He said, you're looking at the wrong word. When I woke up the next morning, I thought, I'm looking at the wrong word. Teach me to number. I was looking at the word "number". He said, don't look at the number, look at the word "aright". Teach me to number my days aright, that I might gain a heart of wisdom.

And I thought, okay, how do I want to number my days aright? There's a right way to do it and a wrong way. The wrong way to number your days is, say, I have 1,200 days left and then I'm gonna die. The right way to number your days is to say, what am I gonna do with the days that I have left? And what I've concluded, and this is what I want on my tombstone, I want to live each day loving unconditionally, live each day serving joyfully, and live each day forgiving quickly. That's how I want to live my life, and that's how I want to number my days aright that I might gain a heart of wisdom. [00:40:41]

Laura Dugger: Wow. Annie, you are just a delightful person to chat with. Thank you for seeking God on this important topic and these relationships that we've discussed today, and thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.

Annie Chapman: Well, thank you for giving me this chance to share with these ladies.

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:41:44]

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:42:49]

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:43:50]

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce

Practical chats for intentional living

A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.

They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!