*DISCLAIMER* This message contains adult themes and is not intended for little ears.

Colossians 3:14 (NIV) “And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity.”

**Transcription Below**

Dr. Michael Sytsma is a certified sex therapist, ordained minister, and co-founder of sexual wholeness. Dr. Mike has been working with couples in a variety of capacities since 1987. He currently works with Building Intimate Marriages in Atlanta, GA as he meets with clients, teaches, and speaks at various conferences. He and Karen have been married since 1985 and have two sons, Josiah and Caleb.

Building Intimate Marriages Website

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Chasing Sacred (Use code SAVVY for 20 percent off their Bible studies)

Connect with The Savvy Sauce through Our Website

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

[00:00:17] <music>

Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.

Chasing Sacred is a women's ministry that provides intentional tools for studying the Bible. Their mission is simple: to get women to love the Word through the process of inductive Bible study. They're offering all of us a discount for 20% off when we use the code SAVVY at checkout.

If this is your first time here, welcome! You may be wondering what it means to have a special Patreon release. So here's the scoop. Patreon was a platform we used to generate financial support for The Savvy Sauce, and we expressed our thanks to those paying patrons by giving them a bonus episode every month. [00:01:16]

But in 2024, we transitioned away from Patreon when we became a nonprofit called The Savvy Sauce Charities. The podcast is part of this nonprofit, which exists to resource loved ones to inspire growth and intimacy with God and others. So people used to pay to support us through Patreon, but now they can just donate directly to our nonprofit.

We spend thousands of dollars each year to record and produce these episodes, and we do pray that they're beneficial and that God sees fit to use them to be transformational in your life. If that is the case, if you have ever benefited from an episode of The Savvy Sauce, would you consider showing your gratitude through your financial generosity? Any amount is greatly appreciated.

In fact, if every listener gave only one dollar per month, it would completely offset our costs. [00:02:16] We have all the details on our website, thesavvysauce.com, but feel free to also reach out to our team anytime if you want to partner together. Our email address is info at thesavvysauce.com.

My guest is pastor, author, speaker, Christian sex therapist, and my previous professor, Dr. Michael Sytsma.

Here's our chat.

Welcome back to The Savvy Sauce, Dr. Sytsma.

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Thank you, Laura. I appreciate it. It's always an honor to be here.

Laura Dugger: Well, like I mentioned previously, you are a longtime friend of The Savvy Sauce, and listeners probably are already familiar with your previous three episodes. But will you just give us a quick picture of your life during this season?

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Sure. I've been married for about 35 years, have two adult children, you know, fairly stable career, love working with couples in my office, about 25 couples a week. [00:03:16] Actually, most of them are doing a fair recovery kind of work and really healing well from that. I love that kind of work. And then a lot of them are doing sex therapy. And then teaching couples and professionals how to work with sexual issues in their life and in their clients.

Laura Dugger: That is such a fascinating variety that you've got on your plate. Today we're going to be discussing how to remain sexually engaged through the years. So, what would you say is the kind of intimacy that you hope everyone listening will experience with their spouse?

Dr. Michael Sytsma: It's fascinating to me how couples will come into either my workshop, or to counseling, or to some of the seminars or teachings that I do, and we have different views of what intimacy looks like. Sometimes they put it in terms of frequency, or how successful they are, and how they touch one another.

For me, what my hope would be is that every couple learn how to just truly be authentic and transparent with each other, getting to the point that I'm not ashamed of any part of who I am, that I can expose that to my spouse, even those parts of me that I don't like about me, that my spouse is going to be curious, or I'm going to be curious about them. [00:04:35] We allow each other to be human and are gracious with each other. So that allows me to be my authentic self in front of you, more you as my spouse than anybody else.

You receive that well, you let me be human, and we're just gracious and continue to be curious about each other. To me, that's the kind of intimacy that I like to see happen. That rolls into the sexual piece, because nobody learns how to excite me, how to nurture me, how to care for me in that arena like you do. The sexual piece happens within that larger context of transparency and curiosity and grace.

Laura Dugger: I think that's a great foundation to come back to, that that sexual intimacy is just a part of the overall intimacy. But I would like to focus on the sexual intimacy in marriage in different phases. So let's begin with newlyweds.

From your work, what is the greatest blessing and the biggest trial for most newlyweds as it relates to sex in marriage? [00:05:39]

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I see three really different groups coming to see me for premarital, and I think the differences in them is important. One group are those that are very sexually limited. They haven't had much sexual activity with anybody, and probably very little, if any, with each other.

They've chosen to draw a boundary around themselves, and they're entering into marriage without having a lot of experience. They'll have some, usually, but not a lot. For these, I think part of the beauty or the joy that they have ahead of them, and part of the challenge, is realistic discovery.

They often come in with a fantasy of what, often, their first sexual encounters with each other is going to be like. They're going to need time to figure themselves and each other out. And many times they're working with an unrealistic expectation. The advantage is they get to discover all of this together. So the encouragement for them is be curious, to explore each other and self, to work on just being playful. [00:06:41]

I think the second group are those that are sexually experienced with others, but not necessarily as a couple. So I have a number of couples come in and say, Well, yeah, through a certain stage of our life, we were wild and crazy, or I might have been married before, but we've really worked on honoring one another, and we've drawn some boundaries and tried to keep that protected.

I think the advantage they bring in is, often, the fantasy piece is a bit disrupted for them. They know that sex isn't always as amazing as media might suggest it is. But the challenge is to learn how to connect with each other without bringing the baggage of their past in. They can bring what they've learned about themselves and about each other in, but how do I not impose that on my new bride, on my new groom?

Again, the way we do that is just by being curious about each other, learning, working on not engaging these experiences up against our past experiences. Take time to really ask, you know, "I've learned this about me. What is it like for you? What have you learned about you?" [00:07:46] And developing a unique way of connecting that is precious to them as a couple, that's informed by the others, but not compared by the others, or not dictated by the others.

I think the third group are those that come in that have been highly sexually active with each other. Many times they've been living together for a while. Sometimes they've been acting as husband and wife, even. And for them, the honeymoon stage, it doesn't have that newness to it. They haven't been waiting for this time. They are beginning life as a married couple, and even if they've been living together, it does change the relationship.

I think it's easy for couples in this category to let the sex life take a hit, because often they're going to be taking hits in other arenas of the marriage, or other arenas of their relationship. For couples that sex is new, even if it's just new with each other, the energy of that newness and the discovery and the play of it kind of helps to override some of those early struggles, where couples where it's not new, they don't have that energy to help override it. [00:08:53] So I think they have to put extra energy into keeping their sex life growing, and keeping it special, and keeping it rich for them.

So I think it depends a little bit on where the couple is coming in, in terms of their sexual experience as a whole and with each other.

Laura Dugger: That distinction is so helpful. You say that so succinctly from your years of experience in meeting countless couples. That's really helpful.

So if we fast forward a bit then, what are some of the unique benefits and challenges that come when the couple adds children into their family?

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I think this is one of the toughest arenas for marriage. We, in our field, will often talk about the birth of the first child as being the greatest trauma to a marriage. We can think of a number of traumas to individual lives, but when we think of a marriage, the birth of the child is the greatest trauma that happens.

Even though we see it as a good thing, it still disrupts the entire system. [00:09:55] We're adding another individual in, and it impacts on multiple levels. The stress, the fatigue, just refocusing attention. Now we've got this new little one that demands attention, and we have to give them attention, whether we want to or not.

"I've enjoyed this time in the evening where you always attend to me, and now you're not attending to me any longer. I want you to attend to our child, but I'm also a little resentful and hurt that I don't get attended to." And how do we sort through that? That can be really tough for a couple.

When it begins to occur, we have not just the financial issues, not just change in roles, and who's responsible for what, and having to readjust those, but it impacts our sex life.

You know, especially for the mom, as prolactin level goes up, and as fatigue goes up, and she's just not... she doesn't have the interest or the energy for it. That was an important way that he connected with her, and she's not available. [00:10:58] They have to often figure out where are we gonna find the energy, and he has to figure out how does he re-energize her in other ways.

This is just a traumatic time as couples have to lean in, be curious about each other, explore, really serve one another well, and recognize this is a tough season for this part of our relationship. We will get through it, and we'll stabilize, and we'll be fine. But sometimes it means just saying, you know what, our sex life is going to take a hit for a few months. And that just needs to be okay, because we have to put the energy into other arenas. Sometimes it means getting away occasionally. But just being gracious and careful with each other.

Laura Dugger: I like that language: being careful with each other. And during that next phase of marriage then, maybe the couple has a few kids, and they could range from toddlers to elementary school. During that season, what positives and negatives do you often hear from those couples? [00:11:59]

Dr. Michael Sytsma: The positive is often kids are a little bit more self-sufficient. So the primary caregiver, often mom, has at least a few more minutes that she can catch her breath. She may be able to sleep through the night now.

And often they have learned a bit of a routine as mom and dad, and how to connect with each other. Hopefully, by now they're figuring out places that they can carve out. They figured out how to be not just mom and dad, but also husband and wife.

I do think that's part of the challenge through all of these. But now is the time that they can start to really carve out that time and establish patterns of "this is where we are husband and wife. We are not mom and dad in this space."

Sometimes that space may be space in the house. You know, the master suite may be where we are husband and wife, and the kids aren't invited into this space. Or it may be certain times of the day is where we're husband and wife. [00:13:01]

One of the couples I'm currently working with, because of the mix of kids that they have, and the kids being in different schedules, two days a week they meet together at home for lunch. And lunch is grabbing a quick lunch, and then kind of their language is, we have each other for lunch. That's their time, their sacred space, where they are just husband and wife, not mom and dad. And none of the kids are at home, they've got free rain, it's middle of the day, so their energy is high, and they're able to step out and just be husband and wife together.

She says, "Most of the time we have sex, not always, but we're always husband and wife." And I think that's part of what can come during the stage as we set patterns that are going to carry through for often the rest of the marriage.

Laura Dugger: That brings me to something else that I've heard you speak on before. Could you just explain how you help couples give language to choosing either a marriage bed or a family bed? [00:14:01]

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Because of this concept of where do I have space that I am husband and wife, not just mom and dad, and helping couples to think about it, for some couples their master suite or their marriage bed is just that, it's a marriage bed. It's where we are husband and wife. And the kids are not really allowed in here, because they don't belong in our marriage. But they do belong in the places that we're mom and dad.

Other couples say, no, we're really not, we're not okay with keeping our kids out of that, we want a family bed. We want a bed where the kids, if they're afraid, can come climb in bed with us.

You know, there's plenty of people who teach on that, and support it, and research on it that say a family bed is a safe, comfortable, it's a nurturing environment for kids and for family. It's good if you do it. And I tell couples, I really, I don't care which they choose. I do think they need to be clear in their own minds as mom and dad, Is our marriage bed a family bed, that the kids are welcome anytime they want to? Or is our marriage bed a marriage bed? That it's where we are just husband and wife. [00:15:12]

If they choose it as a family bed, that's great, put some boundaries around it if need be. But then they really need to find some space where they are just a husband and wife. One of the couples I worked with, they took the guest room and transformed it into their couple place.

And she said, you know, that's where we could retreat as husband and wife, and the kids knew that they weren't welcome in this room. And she said, there wasn't anything horribly special in the room, it's just that's where we could get away and be husband and wife. I think that sends a clear message to the kids, whether it be the bed or a time of the day.

One couple said, "Yeah, I remember my mom and dad, Sunday afternoon, there was two hours that we could not interrupt them every week. That was their time that they were just husband and wife."

Whatever that time is, it teaches kids that they're my mom and dad, but they're also married to each other. They're husband and wife, and that is a relationship that is sacred, and I don't belong in that relationship. [00:16:13] I don't even get to know what's going on there. And I think that's good training for the kids as they get older, to create sacredness around the marital relationship.

Laura Dugger: And my guess is that it would be counterintuitive, but that the kids would actually appreciate that, maybe even especially as they grow older.

Dr. Michael Sytsma: You'll see when mom and dad are being husband and wife, that kids really work hard to insert themselves in the middle of it, and to push mom and dad apart because they want to be in the middle of it. But when dad looks and says, "This is my wife, back off," in a gentle or even a playful way, and mom says, "Hey, this is my husband. This is a hug just from him. You don't belong in here," the kids will fuss a bit about it, but we watch them settle.

That provides a stability for them that my mom and dad like each other. They're connected to each other, and I can't even get in the way of that. [00:17:15] It becomes a real source of stability and strength for the family.

Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.

Sponsor: Hey there, I am thrilled to share something that I believe can transform your quiet time. Have you ever found yourself yearning for a deeper connection with God, but you're unsure where to start? I have some good news for you.

Your time with the Lord can evolve to fit your current season of life. You can wake up excited for your daily dose of God's Word, feeling your heart swell with wonder as you read, and feeling empowered to apply scriptural principles to make positive changes in your life. It is possible to feel those butterflies again during your time with God.

At Chasing Sacred, they understand the challenges of diving into the Bible's 66 books. But that's why Chasing Sacred is here to help guide all of us.

Chasing Sacred provides tools, resources, and a supportive community to make our Bible study experience enriching and accessible, no matter how busy life gets. [00:18:23] So whether you're a fellow mom with a bustling household, or you're someone simply looking for a fresh way to connect with God, Chasing Sacred is here for you so that your quiet time with the Lord can become a cherished part of your day that's all tailored to fit your life's rhythm.

So if you're ready to transform your quiet time, visit them today at ChasingSacred.com and make sure you join their community. You can also use the code SAVVY at checkout for 20% off their Bible studies. Or maybe you want to learn about all 66 books of the Bible. You can buy their Bible study guide, which outlines and explains with a big timeline of the Bible every book of the Bible's themes and purpose. All of this is available at ChasingSacred.com.

Laura Dugger: When married couples are parenting teenagers, what are some of the highs and lows the couple is likely to experience sexually? [00:19:23]

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Many times I'll have couples say, We thought that this would be an easy time for us sexually, because when the kids were little, we were getting up in the middle of the night, and we were always tired. And now the kids can drive themselves to practices and to school, and we're not playing taxi nearly as much. But what we didn't anticipate is now they stay up till midnight. And now they're old enough that if the door is closed and it's quiet in the bedroom, they start to guess at what's going on in there, and that's uncomfortable for us. You know, that they're more aware that sex may be happening, and their radar is out for it.

And so helping couples to, again, to be creative in how do we connect in ways that still feel private, that feel safe to us, that keep the kids on the outside of it, that can actually get more difficult as teenagers.

I think the other piece that comes in is teenage years are often not smooth years for a family. As teens begin to press against the authority of mom and dad, and kids get really good at splitting mom and dad, and parents often feel, you know, different role pressures. [00:20:32] And anytime there's conflict between us as mom and dad, it often shows up in the sex life as conflict in husband and wife.

And so working with couples to keep those two reasonably separated. We can't always, but how do we... Yeah, as mom and dad we might be struggling a bit because our kids just going through icky teenage years, but we still love each other as husband and wife, and we carve out time to connect there with each other.

Laura Dugger: How would you advise, then, a couple in that situation, let's say that their teenagers are becoming aware of what they're doing, how would you creatively problem-solve that, or what are some ideas to get them started?

Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, what I like best, many couples are not real comfortable with. I like an open, transparent approach of, I like your dad, I enjoy connecting with him sexually, and you don't want to know anything about that. And usually the kid is like, No, I don't. I don't even want to... you know? But to say, "But I like him." Or to say, "I like your mom, I think she's really sexy, I enjoy being with her. [00:21:39] And you just don't want to know some of that. So you know what, if there's a sock on the door, just don't come around."

Just be more open about “I like being with, you know, your mom or with your dad.” Not letting them know what's happening during that time, but that it's okay to let them know this still goes on, we still enjoy each other.

Not all couples are okay with that. And for them, I tell them the same thing as when the kids are younger, that they just have to be creative around it. It may be that they can spend more time, you know, getting away someplace, or they can give the kid some money and say, "Hey, you and your siblings go out for a movie, and you know, don't come back for two hours. So all through it is just being creative, but prioritizing connecting as husband and wife.

Laura Dugger: Now let's transition into empty nesters. Are there any patterns you see in these couples? [00:22:39]

Dr. Michael Sytsma: If the couple has really spent their entire marriage being mom and dad, and not prioritizing being husband and wife, it's gonna definitely show up here. As kids leave, and their mom and dad roles continue to diminish, and they don't have a strong husband and wife connection. If they've prioritized their husband and wife connection and separated that from mom and dad, then this is an opportunity for it to really grow. So it's gonna depend a lot on what kind of energy they've put into it up until now.

One of the things to keep in mind, though, is often as they're moving into that empty nester stage, their bodies are getting older, and sexuality takes a different kind of role. It's not the young, athletic kind of sex, and so couples are beginning to figure out, how do we do this differently? How do we handle that our bodies don't always perform the way we want them to? Those kind of factors start to show up. [00:23:39]

I think another thing for empty nesters that I see quite often is a stage of disappointment. Often the higher drive spouse is waiting for the last child to leave, thinking when the last child leaves, we will be free to be naked around the house and have sex all day long.

And if that's not been the pattern for the couple, it's not going to be the pattern when the last child leaves. I'll often see a husband and wife get really depressed and discouraged at that point, because I've been waiting for years sometimes for us to reach this emptiness stage, where we can go back to being the erotic lovers we were on our honeymoon.

And just helping them to realize that if you haven't put the energy into it for it to be that, just the last child leaving isn't going to flip the switch. That you may have the space to do it now, but you still have to put the energy into getting back to where you're connecting with each other.

And then to ask for you to be like you were when you were first married is probably unrealistic anyways. [00:24:40] But now you have the ability, because you know each other, to make a truly rich, authentic sexual relationship with each other. But you have to put the energy into it, even when the last child leaves.

Laura Dugger: Couples who are entering years of aging, what are the most common issues and delights that they share with you?

Dr. Michael Sytsma: Oh, as they move into aging, I think the biggest thing that I work with with couples is accepting the changes that go on in their bodies. That you know, his body doesn't act like it did when he was 18 anymore. Can he accept that and be okay with it?

Because if he develops anxiety and fear around, you know, my body's not gonna work right, and she's gonna think it's about her, and I'm ashamed that my body's not working the way I want it to, then he's gonna tend to pull back.

And she doesn't understand what's going on in his mind, and she begins to think, well it's because my body's not as toned, and you know, it doesn't look like it did when he married me, and he just doesn't want me anymore. [00:25:45] And so she gets more afraid, and she pulls away.

Instead, helping couples to be open and transparent and accept, my body is what it is. You know, as her estrogen level goes down, her body doesn't respond in the same way. And you know, there may be an increased discomfort or pain, and encouraging her to spend some time talking to the doctor about what are some safe options for me? As he struggles with some physiological issues, what are some safe options for him?

And accept that our bodies are changing, and lean in, and let's do this together. Let's talk about it together. Let's be in this journey together.

That's probably the biggest thing that I work with couples. And the beauty of it is, it doesn't matter how old we are as we age, this can still be an important part of our relationship.

I had a couple in their mid-80s come in and sit down and said, "How can I help?" The older we get, the less we're concerned about how we come across sometimes. [00:26:44] And she looked up and she says, "Well, you need to help him, because sexually, well, he's not working so well anymore, and he's afraid of that, so he's not approaching me." And she said, "And I might be in my mid-80s, but I ain't dead down there yet, so we got to get this solved."

And I just thought that was great, you know, to say, "I still want to connect with him. I'm still enjoying this." And all we had to do is get them talking, get him acknowledging the fears, get her talking about what she was hoping for, and what was realistic. And it didn't take them very long before they were right back on track and enjoying.

Laura Dugger: Wow, that's incredible. One of the many reasons I believe in counseling, I think that it's just an incredible return on investment. One more question with these phases, are there any other transitional phases that we haven't covered yet, when you see couples going through a season of, yet again, adjusting their expectations for intimacy? [00:27:45]

Dr. Michael Sytsma: I don't know that it would be developmental stages as much as trauma kind of stages. You know, when a serious health crisis hits, and it disrupts their sexual connection, because sex takes energy and the law of entropy says if we're not putting energy into something, it'll degrade. If a couple's not regularly putting energy into their sex life, it begins to degrade.

And many times a health crisis, whether it be cancer or heart issues or any kind of a health crisis, can disrupt sex for a while. And the couple needing to acknowledge that, recognizing it, and develop a plan for how do we put energy back into it.

Sometimes that happens with a crisis of parents, or if a child is killed or dies in an accident or something. Those kind of major traumas to a family. Sexual wounds like infidelity or infertility. Any of those kind of traumas can disrupt a sex life, and the couple have to step back, re-plan how are we going to reconnect and how are we going to find healing coming out of this. [00:28:57] So less developmental stage and more of a trauma kind of a stage. I will see that as a time.

And many times couples need some help. And you know, a big part of what I do is just come in and provide some energy and encouragement and be a cheerleader. "You can do this. Here's the steps. You know the steps. You know what you did before. I believe in you." Many times they may need somebody that helps to energize this part of their marriage too.

Laura Dugger: I really appreciate you bringing up that phase because I'm sure so many people listening can identify with one of those pieces. If you could just speak one more word of encouragement, what hope would you want to offer them?

Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, no matter where we're at in life, sex is not the most important part of who we are, but it is something that is powerful in drawing us together. And it's worth putting the energy into it. But sometimes just between the two of us we don't always have the energy to get it started. And reaching out to somebody who knows how to help us. [00:30:02] And that may be a book, it may be a good seminar that helps us to re-energize it.

But it's really rare that we find a couple that's kind of stalled out that they can't not just get it started again. But they can actually continue to build on it and develop a really rich part of their marriage in the sexual arena. To me, that is so cool. I hate it anytime a couple gives up hope and just steps back and resigns themselves to what it is.

Laura Dugger: I think that you are an incredible person that they could reach out to, Dr. Sytsma. You're recognized internationally and then have your offices near Atlanta, Georgia, but everyone listening can connect with you in some form online. So where would you like to direct them?

Dr. Michael Sytsma: IntimateMarriage.org is my website. They can access to see what kind of counseling options are there, what kind of intensives are there. [00:31:03] They can access the online teaching through that website. Exercises that they can work on at home are all listed on IntimateMarriage.org.

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will certainly link to that in both our show notes and on our resources tab of our website.

I just have one final question for you today. We are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

Dr. Michael Sytsma: You know, one of the things that I spend a lot of time with couples on is being curious. As we talk through the stages of marriage, if couples can be curious with each other, rather than looking and saying, I need you to be this way, how can you be curious? Curiosity moves us away from being critical. It moves us away from being demanding. It allows us to create space that our spouse can step into and we can understand them better. [00:31:59] So The Savvy Sauce would just be curious about each other.

Laura Dugger: That's a good word. Thank you so much. You are actually our most frequent guest on The Savvy Sauce officially, and you deliver every time. I learn so much new from you. So thanks again for joining us today, Dr. Sytsma.

Michael: Thank you, Laura.

Annie: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:33:04] This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. [00:34:10]

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:35:11]

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce

Practical chats for intentional living

A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.

They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!