1 Corinthians 13:7 (AMP) “Love bears all things [regardless of what comes], believes all things [looking for the best in each one], hopes all things [remaining steadfast during difficult times], endures all things [without weakening].”

**Transcription Below**

Kelley Gray is a Clinical Intensive therapist at Restoring the Soul. She is a Licensed Professional Counselor and a Nationally Certified Counselor. For 19 years it has been her life's work and passion to meet people in their most difficult life challenges. She cares deeply about empowering, educating and facilitating healing in individuals and couples. She has two daughters, 11 and 7, and has been married to Brian for 16 years.

Restoring the Soul Website

Counselor Kelley Gray’s Website

Connect with Kelley Gray on Twitter @kelleygray77

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

[00:00:18] <music>

Laura Dugger: One of our sponsors for today is Samaritan Ministries. Samaritan Ministries offers a biblical solution to healthcare, connecting you with other Christians who will support you spiritually and financially when you experience a medical need. Learn more at SamaritanMinistries.org.

One of our sponsors today is Clearly Filtered. Discover their options online at ClearlyFiltered.com/SavvyWaterFilters. Each customer can enter SAVVYWATERFILTERS at checkout to receive 20% off your first purchase.

Communication is usually at the top of the list for relationship issues, and today, counselor Kelley Gray is our guest to share such a unique and positive perspective on both proactive and reactive healthy communication. [00:01:18] Then she'll also share super practical ways to handle conflict resolution well.

Here's our chat.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kelley.

Kelley Gray: Thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be with you this morning.

Laura Dugger: Will you just tell us a little bit more about yourself and the work that you get to do?

Kelley Gray: Sure. It has been nearly 20 years now that I have been a psychotherapist in the Denver area. And just in this last year, I have started doing intensive psychotherapy work at a wonderful organization called Restoring the Soul.

Laura Dugger: I love that you guys have a podcast. I've listened to you there and have just heard wonderful things about your work. I know that you work with so many couples. So how do you teach spouses to communicate effectively?

Kelley Gray: There are just so many things that I could share there, but I feel like encouraging couples to really not try to communicate when they are feeling too upset or too overwhelmed. [00:02:30] They are just not going to be their real truest versions of themselves when they are really angry.

We are all prone to say things that we don't mean when we are just feeling really upset. So if your heart is racing, if you are sweating, if you just feel really overwhelmed by emotions, I make a plan with couples to make a plan in advance and say, "When we start feeling that way, we are just not going to talk about this right now. We are going to put it off until later, not sweep it under the rug, but put it off until later."

Then one of my other favorite general principles is don't be defensive. But there is a lot of work that goes into not being defensive. It is really hard to not be defensive. But the more people can work on laying down their defensiveness, the better.

Laura Dugger: That is so helpful to even think. That is our red flag is maybe when we are having those physiological responses. That is advice on the reactionary side. [00:03:30] What about being proactive with communication? Do you have any tips there?

Kelley Gray: Yeah. I love to prescribe daily check-ins for couples towards the end of the day. And people with young kids have to be really creative. Sometimes a daily check-in can happen over a text or a phone call when one of them is driving home, if everything is kind of crazy when a spouse walks in the door.

But I really value just a quick daily check-in. It really doesn't have to be more than 10 minutes or so. But to just regularly connect in that way.

But then a little bit longer check-ins weekly. And then to have things that they do seasonally or annually to stay connected. But to just have a really intentional plan around that.

I would also say for them to try hard to add in positivity. Things like appreciation, thank yous, I love you, I'm grateful for X. [00:04:34] Just because the way the human mind, the way we are wired is we are just going to focus more on our pain and on our problems.

It takes extra effort to refocus and say, Okay, what do I value about this person? What have they done for me that I can show gratitude for? And that just greases the wheels for when you have hurts to talk about or patterns to talk about that you want to see positive change in.

Whereas if you have been focusing on the negatives, you just don't have as open of a customer, I like to say. Like their ears are kind of closed because they think, "Here's my partner just complaining about something else again."

Laura Dugger: And so with this positivity, how can people start to grow in that? Because I think that's so wise.

Kelley Gray: Intentionally thinking about your relationship outside of the heat of the moment of conflict. [00:05:39] Because oftentimes we're just so busy in our little lives and doing the next daily thing. And then the negative is what gets our attention and then we want to address it. But then we've kind of got a habit of negativity going on.

So I would really encourage couples to spend time even when they're apart or driving around. Or some people are journalers or they just kind of like to keep a log of what they need to do that day. I say put it on your to-do list, put it in your journal to spend a little bit of time just thinking about what is positive about your spouse. Then force yourself to say it to them. We're all so different.

Some people are just naturally positive and will be more effusive with those things. So for the people who this doesn't come quite as naturally for, like it feels kind of vulnerable or it doesn't feel as authentic, I would so strongly encourage them just to experiment with it and just try to make themselves say.

And they don't have to gush. It absolutely has to be something true. [00:06:39] You're not making up something about your spouse. But it can just be some work to cultivate it and to try to create a new habit of positivity.

Laura Dugger: One of the reasons that I love so much what you're saying is this positivity and encouragement actually will be a stronger motivator than criticism.

Kelley Gray: Absolutely. It really does create this economy in your marriage of we build each other up. We try really hard to say yes to the other person's dreams and wishes and desires.

We're not putting ourselves aside. Of course, you have to hold on to yourself and the other person at the same time, make room for both of you.

But positivity really does make the other person so much more open when you have issues with them or complaints or you need something to change or be different or you're unhappy with some aspect of the marriage. They are not as likely to think, well, they're just mad at me all the time. So I don't even know what to pay attention to. [00:07:42]

Laura Dugger: Yes. Is there any specific homework that you do assign to grow in communication?

Kelley Gray: I really like couples to think intentionally through their patterns and just kind of notice what are the elements that are in place when they are feeling more connected. Okay, we do better on Saturday mornings or we do better on Sunday afternoons or we do really poorly if we have not had alone time together in a long time.

I've had so many women tell me that they've noticed a pattern of they get really mad at their husbands or they'll be feeling really negatively about them. But then if they spend some extended time with them, they say, "Oh, I forgot how much I really do like you. I forgot that I picked you for great reasons. But just the daily stress was kind of getting us down."

So I really encourage couples to try to take a few steps back and just try to see their natural patterns for when they are more connected or less connected. [00:08:48] I don't have a one-size-fits-all like a "you must do a weekly date night". That means different things to different people and it looks different based on what season of life you're in.

So when I'm working with people as a therapist, we kind of cultivate, we brainstorm and flesh that out together. But for couples listening, I would just say you guys get to... you get to kind of make it up and say, I would love a mid-morning phone call from you if that works," or, you know, a nap time phone call if you've got little kids at home. Or I would love for us to go away one weekend a month and we're so busy that I'll just catch you then and we'll catch up then.

So I really do like to tell people that you don't have to be like other couples. You just really have to talk with each other and see what patterns you would like to develop with one another to provide good maintenance and upkeep on your connection.

Laura Dugger: I appreciate how individualized that is, because we often hear we need to be a student of our spouse. [00:09:49] But what do you see as some ways that we can actually do this in order to be more loving in our communication and respectful in our conflict resolution?

Kelley Gray: Absolutely. I love that question so much. A couple of things.

One, really try to spend time thinking about what life is like from your spouse's, your partner's perspective. Think about what they've been through in their lives, their childhood, the impact of their early experiences upon them. Really spend time thinking about their temperament and how they're very naturally hardwired.

Then really think about what they're like when they are overwhelmed. Because I know even for me in my marriage, and I'm a therapist, I'm supposed to know better, but I have really judged my husband for different ways that he responds when he's under stress. And I'm quite sure he has judged me back for the ways I respond under stress. [00:10:52]

But those are such very ingrained responses. Absolutely, we're all responsible for what we do under stress. There's no excuse for abusive or toxic behavior when we are under stress.

But if we can just have a compassionate understanding that our spouse is working with a very specific little nervous system that has never existed before in all of time or space or history, then it can soften us towards their responses and maybe we can hang in there a little bit better with them.

Laura Dugger: Will you say more about that? I think you put that in such a unique way. I just want to hear more.

Kelley Gray: Well, we have some pretty natural ways of responding. In the psych world, we would say a person is either prone to move away from and withdraw during conflict, or they will move toward and kind of cling to the person that they're having conflict with, or they will move against and create more friction. [00:11:52] They'll fight the person that they are in conflict with.

Those are so automatic that if a husband is naturally withdrawing and the wife is more of a move against, kind of fight it out, let's stick in here and let's duke this out, let's figure this out, not physically duke it out, but let's just keep on going with talking about it and hashing through it all. If they were to be able to be more compassionate for the other person's wiring and make a little bit more room for the other person's natural responses.

Unfortunately for the more aggressive spouse, that would absolutely mean backing off, standing down, taking a break. And it doesn't mean that the move against person is wrong or bad. It's just that if they were to understand how overwhelmed the withdrawn person is, they would really compassionately understand that that person is deeply stressed out and they need some time to self-soothe and self-regulate. [00:12:51]

Also, they would understand they really might not be talking about what the actual real issue is. That so often letting a little cool down happen where the emotions are not as high anymore and the withdrawn person is able to feel more centered and emotionally available and their ears are more open and the more aggressive person is able to feel more centered and grounded and more open to the more withdrawing person, they'll just find their way forward so much faster.

Actually, it is so much more efficient to take a little break than if the aggressive person had had their way and just been able to kind of push through and let's do this conflict.

Laura Dugger: So well said. From your experience, do you often see couples that have the same posture in conflict?

Kelley Gray: Yes. And I don't want to say it's funny because it's not funny. But it's kind of... I mean, in a way it's nice because they can understand what the other person's wanting. So, yeah, when I have two aggressives, I just put rules on both of them because they will end up saying things out of their emotions that they are apologizing for later on. [00:14:02]

Then if I have two withdrawing types, I have to really coach and counsel them to not just let the moment pass and go back to normal again. But to bring back to the table in the light, in the calm, with love, present, what it was that went wrong between them that causes them to withdraw from each other. That's the toughest trick for the withdrawing types.

Then for the more clinging types, the move toward, they can feel so scared of feeling disconnected that they need some encouragement around, No, you do get to own what upset you or what felt yucky to you and trust that it's not going to ruin your relationship. That actually you'll feel stronger and you'll feel more connected on the other side of having dealt with your issues.

Whereas if you're just kind of clinging to each other and you have these problems and then you try to stuff them down because you're so scared it's going to hurt your intimacy, those people can get really hostile towards each other and really passive-aggressive towards each other. [00:15:07]

So nobody gets out. We all have some ineffective strategy. We're applying just naturally to our conflicts.

Laura Dugger: Yes. But I feel like all of this that you're saying has such biblical basis. I have to acknowledge this. This morning my quiet time was in 1 Thessalonians 5. And there's so much that you're saying... First of all, it's talking about encourage one another and build each other up. And that goes back to your positivity.

Later, under a section of Christian conduct, it's not giving a one-size-fits-all. It tells us how to encourage the timid or in the amplified version, it says to admonish those who are out of line. And so that's different from encouraging the timid or helping the weak. And that's exactly what you're saying is each one will require something different.

Kelley Gray: Yes. Oh, that's really cool that you read that this morning. It really does resonate. [00:16:07]

Laura Dugger: So, Kelley, what would you say overall is your view on conflict in marriage?

Kelley Gray: No one can escape it. And it is absolutely essential to deal with your stuff. One of my many metaphors for it is that in a busy, bustling, vibrant, lively household, it makes trash. It generates trash. And it makes messes and things get dirty and have to be cleaned. We have to do maintenance and we have to do cleaning work in order to keep an environment feeling good and healthy.

So in a marriage, two people doing life together, they generally want that to feel good and connected and positive and joyful. But they are just going to have issues with each other. They're going to hurt each other. [00:17:08] They're going to step on old wounds or old negative messages that one of the partners or both, you know, believe about themselves. They're going to step on each other's boundaries. They're going to overstep. They're not going to have the exact same value on money or parenting or leisure time or family of origin stuff.

And when that causes negative feelings to build up or hurts or disconnection, couples have got to be willing to sit down and talk that out and hash through that and each share their side of what they're feeling and try really hard to make a lot of room for the other person to really feel seen and heard and not hurry back to their own perspective and trying to make their own perspective the only one that gets airtime.

When couples do that heavy lifting, when they carry those trash bags out of the kitchen, they gather up the trash from around the house and they carry it out and they put it on the curb. [00:18:12] They might have rather been doing something else more fun, like watching a show or playing a game or something. But if they choose to sit down and do that chore, really, of dealing with the negative and processing through it, their house and the relationship between them just feels so much lighter and airier and brighter. And there is so much more room for true and real joy.

I've just had so many people who have come in in a pattern of stuffing and avoiding their problems because they just want to be happy and they just want to have fun. But things have completely screeched to a grinding halt and nothing is fun and nothing feels happy anymore. To have them just proclaim and exclaim how much freer and happier they feel after having taken out the trash and just wishing that they would have been doing it all along and fully committing to a lifestyle of just dealing with the junk when it needs to come up. Because, man, the years as they go by, it just feels so much better when you have that regular practice of taking out the trash that accumulates between you. [00:19:14]

Laura Dugger: Oh, my goodness, that is such a great analogy. And I love that you're just normalizing conflict for couples. I know we kind of touched on, Okay, if they're both aggressive or they're both withdrawn, how would that look different for the couples who approach things so differently from their spouse?

Kelley Gray: I have a lot of favorite marriage gurus and researchers. John Gottman from the Gottman Institute says that similarities are money in the bank and differences are a bit more work. I don't want that to be overly discouraging to spouses because we all marry people who possess some trait that we really need to develop in ourselves or some trait that is going to really refine and develop us.

It really is God's pretty incredible plan for continuing to refine us and grow us into Christ's likeness. [00:20:15] So don't be too discouraged about it. But you really do have to do a lot of the empathy work and the understanding work and understanding that temperament of the other person and really helping educate the other person on you, what conflict feels like to you and what you need.

So you kind of have two conversations. One is how we do conflict, how we make it most productive, how we keep it safe and don't harm each other with our words or our actions. So that meta conversation of how we do conflict will have to kind of be an open conversation because then the second conversation is, you know, the thing you're struggling over.

And sometimes that's how we load the dishwasher or what kitchen counter towel we want to pick or what school the kids are going to go to or where we're going to go on vacation or sex or money or whatever. That's the secondary thing. But people who are just very different really have to work on the primary issue of talking about how they do conflict.

So I have... I call it the autopsy for after they have worked through an issue. [00:21:17] I want one brave person and a couple to go back and say, Okay, how did I do? What could I have done differently to make that more productive? Did I do anything that got in the way, wasted time, or hurt your feelings? And you can kind of autopsy how you did the conflict.

And I say brave person because most people say, "We got through that. I don't want to go back to it again." But it's like car maintenance. It just runs way better if you just do the tune-ups.

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Laura Dugger: You've done an incredible job laying this foundation that conflict is normal and it can be healthy. But are there any harmful ways to engage in conflict resolution?

Kelley Gray: Yes. I really do teach people a lot about being emotionally flooded or overwhelmed. [00:24:18] They're basically in fight or flight. Their sympathetic nervous system has gone into pure survival mode. We call it the reptilian brain because we're really able to strike and run away really, really well. We're awesome at that when we are flooded.

I teach people to be very, very disinterested in fighting from a flooded state or fighting with a flooded person. I say you can also go and corner a wild animal and see what happens because that is what's going to happen inside of your spouse if you pursue and push when they're already overwhelmed. Because our brains are literally not able to think clearly. We are not in touch with our values when we are in fight or flight mode. It is just the body's attempt to take over and survive.

The problem is, is that it's the year 2020 and it's usually some idea or emotional reality or attachment wound or experience that we are fighting about. [00:25:24] We're not fighting for our physical safety, usually. And so you don't need all that big physiological response.

What you really need in marriage conflict is a calm, grounded, centered self that can say, "Here's what I need. Here is what really, really hurts me. I just need you to understand that we need a level-headed, grounded person who's in touch with their love for the other person to be able to engage in the conflict."

But it is extremely tempting to fight when you are upset. It's extremely tempting. We will say and do our most harmful things when we are flooded, because the human version of the wild animals, fangs, and claws are usually as hurtful of words as we can throw at the other person.

I mean, sometimes people say things that are true that they've been holding back. But very often people are just saying something that they know will create the same level of hurt inside of the other person. We're looking for that other person to mirror how hurt we feel. [00:26:30] And when everything calms down from that, the regret is just profound at what has been said.

So I will tell couples when they're flooded, I am not invalidating their pain. I'm just saying that they're extremely vulnerable to do something that they will really regret. So I just call that the red zone. I say whatever the true trigger or emotion is, is super valid and important but it cannot get discussed right then.

And so I really have some pretty hard rules that I put on people where I say, "If you are really upset and overwhelmed, stop. Don't talk. Don't touch. Don't block the other person." People grab people's phones away. No, no, no. Don't enter each other's space. Really just give clearance to the other person. A respectful clearance.

It does not mean that you're hurt or pain or complaint is not valid. It just means that you're going to even be more respectful of yourself and share it at a time when it can actually be heard and dealt with.

Laura Dugger: So what I'm hearing you say then is we can be more productive in this conflict resolution if we recognize when we're flooded and know that's when to take a break. [00:27:40] And then also know that we need to re-engage and discuss all of these things. But it will be better for everyone if we take that pause.

Kelley Gray: Absolutely. And it helps when they discuss in a calm time. They'll say, "Let's make a pact. Let's promise to, when we're flooded, take a break. And we both understand what that means, that I'm not abandoning you and I'm not rejecting you. I am just trying to be safe."

Then couples can navigate and talk through what that looks like for them. Like, "Okay." But don't leave the house without saying "I'll be back." Things like that.

Laura Dugger: Do you have any other healthy ways that we can engage in conflict resolution?

Kelley Gray: Just focusing on being grounded and centered and calm. I encourage people to authentically speak what is going on with them and not to water it down. Sometimes people can be overly aggressive, but a lot of the time with couples, I see them kind of trying to minimize or shave the edges off of what they are feeling or requesting. [00:28:45]

I say generally treat your spouse like they can handle it and that they want to know the whole truth of what's going on with you. So speaking the truth with grace. And "with grace" means you're trying to give the other person the benefit of the doubt that they probably didn't wake up that morning trying to aggravate or hurt you. Everyone needs to take ownership of their own part.

But to catch themselves in the act of if they're trying to take ownership for the whole thing. Sometimes in couples you have an other blamer and a self-blamer. That can get to be kind of a yucky pattern of one person not taking blame and being comfortable putting it on the other person. And the other person says, "Okay, yeah, you're right. Maybe this is all mine."

The problem is, is that if it's not true or real or authentic, it's going to fester and cause problems later on. So the more in reality we can be with what really is ours to take ownership and what is not ours to take ownership of, if we can stay calm and grounded and talk through that, then we're really being mature and awesome. [00:29:53]

Work really hard to see the perspective of the other person. Work to feel empathy and compassion. If they say something upsetting, try really hard to ask questions rather than have a strong reaction. Because maybe you haven't understood the whole of what they're trying to say.

Lastly, understand that people have different communication styles. Some people are verbal processors and they will really need to talk through a lot of different ideas before they arrive at their final destination of, Okay, this is what I feel. If the listening spouse can understand that and go for the ride with them, with some compassion and understanding, knowing, "Okay, we'll get there. I'm not going to jump on that one point right there. I'm going to let her keep going or him keep going."

And that some people are not verbal processors, and so they really need their time to think through what their few main thoughts are. And for both to just be welcoming of those different styles of communication. [00:30:58]

Laura Dugger: I think what stands out is that idea of clarifying questions with the posture of assuming the best, but then just asking, Okay, tell me more. Help me understand this here. How did you experience blank?

Kelley Gray: Yes, absolutely. "Or I just feel confused. I need to keep listening. Can you keep saying more about this?" Because oftentimes people will say, "Can I get an example of when I have done that?" That can be a very defensive question that is saying I'm not going to own that for anything. You need to bring me an argument with evidence and dates because I'm just going to shut that down wholesale."

But that question can be asked in humility with, can you help me understand when I have done that? Because that is not in my self-awareness. That's not how I see myself. I don't see myself as a person who treats you that way. Can you give me some examples? [00:31:59]

And if the person can't, then what I will often tell couples in session is, All right, well, that's going to be one to be attending to and mindful of moving forward. So can he have permission to let you know when you do that kind of more in real-time and say, "This is that thing that we were talking about in therapy?"

Laura Dugger: Yeah, that's a very honoring approach. Do you have any other first steps that couples can take toward becoming healthier in their fighting styles?

Kelley Gray: I really do think that people should journal about their patterns, I cannot overstress that, to just catch themselves in the act. Because our enemy is automaticity. We get really automatic in how we respond to each other. When we can approach our patterns with curiosity and be kind of like a little reporter noticing them, that just turns the lights on for conflict resolution.

I encourage people to know how to get themselves calm again, what they need to get themselves calm again. So to know how to practice self-soothing. [00:32:59]

And then the whole talking outside of the heat of the moment thing, I also call that having a fire drill for what you're going to do when you smell smoke and things feel intense. Have a plan that you're both going to follow. But then so many more.

Does that feel like those are some good first steps?

Laura Dugger: Those are. I want to clarify the self-soothing. I think it's so easy to come up with examples in our minds of unhealthy ways to do that that may cause more issues. So what are some examples of healthy ways we can self-soothe?

Kelley Gray: Depending on how your body is made, some people are more physical and they just can't sit still if they're upset. So for those people, I would say do anything physical. Run the stairs really quick. Do some push-ups. Do some jumping jacks.

I've done a lot of work with the MOPS organization, mothers of preschoolers, over the years. I've talked with them a lot about when you get flooded and overwhelmed with little kids around and you can't necessarily go take a yoga class or paint your nails or something. [00:34:01] That sometimes just doing jumping jacks, something that just gets your heart rate up and just discharges some of all that energy inside of you.

So something physical. You can even do a plank or a downward dog or some push-ups against the wall. Even shaking out your hands or just standing up and stretching a little bit can just release some of that tension.

Other people who don't feel it quite as physiologically, sometimes just laying down for a minute or two or five can be good. Some positive things like prayer or reading scripture or reading positive quotes that make them feel grounded again. Breathing, texting a friend, asking for some support that way.

It would just be not trying to get your partner to soothe you right then because sometimes your partner is just as incapable of soothing you as you are of soothing them. You can get mad about that, but it doesn't change the reality that they just can't do it right then. And so when both people can know what helps them feel a little bit calmer. [00:35:04]

And they can discuss that with each other. Because if there's the husband that goes down to the basement and turns on the Xbox for three hours and says, "Well, I was self-soothing," you can say, "Well, people are generally there... Their nervous system is calmed within 20, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, something like that. They can usually regain their composure if they've been intentional about helping themselves.

Downregulate is the nerdy way of saying it, but getting that heart rate back down again and back to a more grounded place.

Laura Dugger: That is so helpful to even have parameters on a recommended time. So we all want to be productive in resolving conflict. And will you just share some helpful interventions that we can try?

Kelley Gray: Yeah. The more grounded you are in God and in your true self, the more skills you really just naturally have. You're just so much better at navigating what your partner needs. [00:36:02]

But a couple interventions. Some of my favorites are just really a mindset. And so the mindset of benefit of the doubt of the other person, the mindset of taking each other at face value. Especially if we were raised in homes where we had a more immature parent or a manipulative person or an abusive person around, it can really train us up to not take our partners at face value and to think that they're up to something else or to try to be second guessing what they say. I tell couples to have a conversation about how you're going to take each other at face value.

If somebody says, "You seem upset, are you upset?" and the other person says, "No, I'm not upset," that you need to take three deep breaths and say, "Okay, I believe you. And I believe that you'll tell me if that changes." And they'll say, "Great. Okay, good deal." Or they'll say, "Yes, I'm upset. Sorry, I was trying to hide it or fake it or something." So face value.

Eye contact can be really helpful. I mean, this really varies. [00:37:02] Sometimes people who've been traumatized can get kind of overwhelmed by eye contact. But I'd say for most couples, trying to offer your presence through just good, solid, present eye contact can just feel really good and really calming to the other person. So sometimes just kind of holding a moment of eye contact before even talking. I know that sounds more like something you might do on a therapist's couch, but just throwing it out there for people who might want to try it.

And then touch if it is welcome Because sometimes when couples are feeling disconnected, they're physically closing off and walling off. But it can send such an amazing, calming, soothing signal if one will reach over and squeeze the hand of the other person or just put their hand on their arm, even if something painful or difficult is getting talked about.

That certainly does not go for everybody. When I've done marriage workshops, I'll say, "Who likes the idea of being touched when you're in conflict, and who does not like the idea of being touched in conflict?" And it's the 50-50. [00:38:01]

But for the people for whom it works, it is an awesome intervention. They just calm way down. And my husband's one of those people. We could be talking about something difficult, and if I just put my hand on his back, his shoulders melt and it's almost like he doesn't care anymore. And I'm not being manipulative. I do care what he is talking about. But for those for whom it is helpful, it's really, really good.

Then one last one is just to not forget the positivity as a helpful intervention. Being positive, affirming of the other person, and then speaking your complaint or hurt in an authentic, grounded way just makes it all go so much better.

Laura Dugger: Kelley, I love all of that. I definitely want to ask my husband tonight that same question. "Would you prefer to be touched or not during conflict?"

Kelley Gray: Can I tell a quick story about a couple real quick that I worked with?

Laura Dugger: Please do.

Kelley Gray: They were so adorable. Just because of her history and background, she would feel so intimidated and overwhelmed when her husband would get upset. [00:39:04] I'd say he was a more passionate type of person. He wasn't doing anything scary. He just would feel strongly or deeply. And I think her dad was a pretty stoic, quiet character, so she wanted something different when she was choosing a husband. And then she got something different and would get kind of overwhelmed and scared of him.

And then when he would see that she was seeming scared of him, he would feel shame and get more upset and it would get so much worse. So we had to do a ton of work around her... He was very much inviting and saying, "I think it would help me a ton if you would just put your hand on me in some way." And she was saying, "I don't know if I can get there. Can I use a stick at first?"

So we just had such a laugh around her finding something to pet him with so that she could still keep a safe distance. And then that melted away very quickly. And she was able to just move towards and their conflict softened tremendously and got way more productive. I'm very open to whatever works for people. I will work with it. We're going to work with it. [00:40:07]

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Kelley, how can we continue to get to know each other better and appreciate one another deeper? [00:41:08]

Kelley Gray: I love that question so much. I have such a basic thing to say about that first. It is be sure that you are keeping just your basic politeness and social skills up with your partner. Especially the longer marriages go on, the more we can be far more polite and attentive to strangers than we are to the people that we are sharing our own home with. Just the very basics of thank you, and I love you, and I appreciate you.

Deeper than that is stay curious about the other person. Never forget that human beings are dynamic, and we are just changing all the time, and there's always something going on below the surface.

And to just encourage, challenge yourselves to stay open and keep sharing things with your spouse. [00:42:09] I think even embarrassing things. Like if you dreamed something that you felt like, Oh gosh, that makes me such a weirdo.

I dreamed that I kissed one of my husband's friends. I'm just thinking about the broad range of listeners and what all of their issues could possibly be. I just think we have our issues, but fears of infidelity, it's just not been on our radar. So I woke up and felt embarrassed about that and thought, share it with him. Because if you share it with him, he's going to share his embarrassing stuff with you. That's the economy you want to create in your marriage, one of openness.

And he laughed, and he said, "No, I totally get it. That guy's hot." He said, "I think I dream about kissing him too." He just knew that I felt so embarrassed about it. So it's actually embarrassing about my own self, not even about inappropriate about clients.

Laura Dugger: I think you're so right that when we share even those tiny little things, or like you said, embarrassing moments, it really does foster intimacy. [00:43:13]

Kelley Gray: It sure does. Now, my husband, he gets to look at me and just say, "I know everything about that girl. That is cool. She's mine." It's so much more fun than him thinking that I have a perfect image. I just don't have the energy to keep up a perfect image. And more love comes from us being our real true selves.

So just sharing things with your spouse that feel a little bit like a risk and it feels vulnerable can inspire them to stay open with you as well.

And if your spouse is closed off, investigate why. Don't just let that go. Don't tell yourself that that's just what happens in marriages and that people run out of things to talk about. There's a reason why they're closing off. And it would benefit you to pull the thread of that now as opposed to in waiting five years.

Laura Dugger: Well, this has been so awesome already. Kelley, where can listeners find you online or perhaps book some sessions with you? [00:44:12]

Kelley Gray: Well, I work at Restoring the Soul and we are at restoringthesoul.com. I do mostly just intensive work these days. But we do also have an awesome podcast and I have several episodes on our podcast and hope to have more. My personal website is Kelleygray.com. I'm on Twitter @Kelleygray77. K-E-L-L-E-Y G-R-A-Y. I'm not super active on social media, but I'm out there a little bit.

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. In case this is someone's first time listening, we always link to all of this in both our show notes and our "Resources" tab of our website.

We are called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, Kelley, what is your savvy sauce?

Kelley Gray: I really am aware that small mundane moments can really create lasting memories and emotions and experiences. [00:45:18] And so I try so hard to stay present and awake during even our most mundane daily activities.

I also try so hard to look for everything funny. I just pursue what will be funny, what will make my family laugh after kids go to bed. I just want to watch funny shows. But I really reward my children and my husband when they make me laugh.

So continually I'm always grooming everybody's comedic abilities and creativity to make me laugh. And so they don't have to please me through achievements or perfect behavior. If they make me laugh, then, man, that is... I just feel like that's our savvy sauce in our family.

Laura Dugger: I love it. And you clearly have a great sense of humor.

Kelley Gray: Thanks.

Laura Dugger: I just want to say thank you for the life-changing work that you've devoted yourself to. It was such an honor to get some time with you today. [00:46:18] You're just very peaceful to be around. And you add so much value with your presence. So thank you for being my guest.

Kelley Gray: Laura, thanks so much for having me. And thanks for doing this work of trying to enrich people's lives and relationships and marriages. Thank you for your devotion.

Laura Dugger: I appreciate that.

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:47:22]

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:48:27]

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:49:27]

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce

Practical chats for intentional living

A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.

They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!