254. Raising Healthy Children with Dr. Charles Fay
2 Chronicles 20:12b (NIV) "We do not know what to do, but our eyes are on you.”
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
When it comes to helping our child find purpose in life, what are some helpful questions to ask and why is this even important?
What are some specific examples of beneficial discipline for a variety of ages of children?
What are natural and proactive ways we can improve mental health in ourselves and our children?
Charles Fay, PhD, is an internationally recognized author, consultant, and public speaker. He is also president of the Love and Logic Institute, which became part of Amen Clinics in 2020. Millions of educators, mental health professionals, and parents worldwide have benefited from Dr. Fay's down-to-earth solutions to the most common and frustrating behaviors displayed by youth of all ages. These methods come directly from years of experience serving severely disturbed youth and their families in psychiatric hospitals, public and private schools, homes, and other settings. For more information, visit loveandlogic.com.
Dr. Fay's Book, Co-Authored with Dr. Daniel Amen: Raising Mentally Strong Kids
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
** Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.
My guest for today is Dr. Charles Fay, and he's the current president of the Love and Logic Institute. We're going to discuss various questions about parenting, so we'll cover things that are related to beneficial discipline, brain health, and the balance of pursuing quality time with our children, while also not forgetting to include a wise amount of breaks.
Many of these insights can be found in this book that Dr. Fay co-authored with Dr. Daniel Amen, and it's entitled Raising Mentally Strong Kids.
Here's our chat. [00:01:20]
Welcome to the Savvy Sauce, Dr. Fay.
Dr. Charles Fay: Thank you so much. I feel so blessed to be here. Thank you, everyone who's watching and listening. We're so thankful for you.
Laura Dugger: Well, I know that many people are already familiar with you and even your family of origin, but will you just tell us a bit about your family and the work that you get to do?
Dr. Charles Fay: Well, I'm so blessed by having two parents who were really imperfect people who had wonderful hearts. They were always trying to get better. That's one of the messages I want to send to people is that it's not about being perfect. None of us are, none of us can't be, and none of us have to be. That's really the good news. That's the gospel right there. [00:02:08] So we want to kick back and relax and enjoy our time together here.
My family, my father, Jim Fay, was unhappy with how well he was doing with students in his role as an educator. And he wasn't real happy with his parenting. So he went on a desperate search, I'd say, for skills. This was when I was a kid. And I've got some grades. That was a while ago.
But he developed with Dr. Foster Cline, a love of logic approach. I want to give you two pivotal foundational ideas right off the bat that will, I think, take the pressure off of you as a parent and help you raise really great kids.
Our first rule of love and logic is that we take really good care of ourselves. One of the ways we do that is by setting limits without anger, lecture, threats, or repeated warnings. But let's see, if our kids are going to grow up to be really strong and healthy and loving people, they cannot treat us like doormats. [00:03:14] That's not going to work for them. And it's not going to work for you. So it's not selfish, in fact, it's very loving to take good care of yourself by setting limits.
The research is clear. Kids who have limits are happier. Now, they might not be happier in the short term. They might be mad at you in the store or call you the worst mom or dad in the world. But long term, they're happier and they have much less anxiety because limits equal safety. Limits equal love.
Laura and I are going to talk about limits as we go through this podcast, but I just want to throw out that main idea, that that you... you know, our obligation to them is to put ourselves first in a loving way so that we have energy to be able to parent them well.
Now, the second idea that I want to share with you is that when a kid causes a problem, this is rule number two, when a kid causes a problem or they encounter a problem that is not a life and death issue, hand it back. [00:04:16] The great parent, the beautiful, wise parent is asking with empathy, Oh, honey, you forgot to do your assignment, and now, you know, you're calling me and asking me what I'm going to do. If any kid can handle this, you can. What do you think you're going to do?
Oh, my coach won't let me play. That's heartbreaking. I know how much you care about this. Notice the empathy first. And then this question. What do you think you're going to do? What do you think you're going to do? I want you to memorize that, parents, right now. Write it down. What do you think you're going to do?
And it's asked with sincerity and with love, and of course, we're going to follow up with some ideas for the kid, but we're not going to own it. We're going to let them own it. Because there's another very clear piece of research that's come out after all these decades of love and large teaching that the perils of helicopter parenting. [00:05:25]
We've been preaching that for years. We've been teaching that for years. Don't rescue your kids unnecessarily. Only do it when they really need it, because kids who are rescued come to believe that they need rescue and they're terrified throughout life. "Oh, no. How am I going to handle life? I've never really had to deal with problems before."
See, and now the research is very clear that the helicopter parenting to over-rescue where we don't allow kids to own and solve their problems is strongly associated with high levels of depression and anxiety in adulthood. So, again, isn't it interesting, Laura, that a lot of the things that we do as parents where we think, oh, gosh, I feel kind of bad because, you know, I'm putting myself first or I feel kind of bad because I expected my kid to solve this problem.
You know, we feel guilty. We are like, oh, no, maybe I'm a bad parent because they got really upset about that. [00:06:27] It's interesting that a lot of times when we feel that way, we're actually doing exactly what's required to help our kids have the most joyful and productive lives and be able to see the value. I'm going to be really clear here, the value of handing over their lives to the Lord. Lord, I need you. I can't control everything. I mean, we want this. But isn't it interesting, isn't it interesting that we often feel guilty when we do those things?
Laura Dugger: But I think you're just illustrating so well not leaning on our own understanding. You brought up these tensions. I want to zero in on that because there are some tensions in parenting where, on one hand, we do want to pursue quality time with our children, and we know that's important, and we need to pursue breaks and rest as the caretaker. How do you manage tensions like that? Or I'll just name one more, the tension of embracing both firmness and kindness. [00:07:35]
Dr. Charles Fay: If you have that tension, parents, if you have that tension where you're like, oh, I know I should be firm and kind, but I can't find that sweet spot, where is that sweet spot? Okay, I don't know if this is encouraging to you, but I haven't found that sweet spot.
Or you're thinking, where's the balance between quality time and authentic, intimate relationship with our kids and also saying, Okay, my turn. I need a break. Where's that sweet spot? Oh, I'll find it someday. Never found it.
Now, I've talked to a lot of people over this, and there are a lot of tensions in life, and many of them are spiritual tensions. The reality is, it's really good for us to have those. When you feel that tension, you're probably somewhere in the right spot. [00:08:36] It's the people who don't experience the tension that are problematic. It's a parent who never thinks, oh, maybe I should spend a little time taking care of myself. They're just totally idolizing their kids, and they do everything for their kids. That's really problematic. Or, on the other side, the parent who thinks, oh, the kids will raise them well. They're bright kids. They never worry about it.
Again, I just want to be completely frank with you and authentic, honest. You're going to have that tension, and sometimes you're not going to quite get it right. Sometimes you're going to be maybe a little firmer than you should be, and other times you're going to be a little kinder than you should be, or more loving than you should be, or soft than you should be. You're going to make those mistakes. There's going to be a dynamic tension forever between these things. [00:09:36] The good news is, isn't it great that we're not running the show?
Laura Dugger: Absolutely.
Dr. Charles Fay: If we had to be perfect, and God wasn't in control, what a disaster that would be, right? We have a sovereign, all-knowing, all-loving God of the universe, creator, sovereign creator, and sustainer of the universe who's taking all of this and working it together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose. Let's rest in that.
Laura Dugger: I think that's very much the word that's coming through is rest and trusting in Him. But when it comes to maybe even to those actionable moments, if a parent can't discern when they're going too much to one of those sides, do you have any questions for self-reflection or practical examples? [00:10:46]
Dr. Charles Fay: Well, you go to a friend of yours, and you go to people you really trust, godly people you really trust, and you ask them, be honest with me, what do you see in my life? You go to people who your kids are relating to, teachers, coaches, and you ask them to be honest with you. And you make it easy for them to be honest with you, which means that if they share something that's a little painful, you don't overreact, right? You don't make it hard for people to be honest with you.
So many times, we don't really have a good picture of how wonderful our kids are because we live with them all the time. Let's think about how do people who live together treat each other? It's the reality, the sad reality of it, but it's the reality, and it's a consistent historical reality, is people who are walking through the desert together, camping out every day, dealing with adversity, are not always their best when they're with each other. [00:11:59] I think my wife would agree with that.
Now, of course, I'm not saying it's okay to treat people who are close to us with disrespect or anything. Of course, we want to be preying on that and doing the very best we can to love those close people very well. But one of the ways we evaluate how well we're managing that tension is looking at how do our kids treat other people? How do they treat their teachers? How do they treat their coaches? How do they handle situations when they're away from us?
I've had so many parents come to me and say, oh, I struggle with my kids. We have power struggles, and they get snippy with me, and I get snippy with them. How does that sound like real life? But I have people, and they're all racked up. Oh, no, my kids, they're a nightmare. But the teachers say, "Oh, I wish I had 30 of your son. I wish I had..." all this sort of thing. [00:13:01]
It's so interesting in that that's really where you look. That's really where you look is how are they handling the rest of the people in their lives? And then, of course, again, we want to work on the home environment. Over the years, I've seen so many people get pretty desperate and concerned when they really have some pretty great kids out there.
Laura Dugger: That's so encouraging. Thank you, Charles. I'd love to shift gears because there's this piece that you wrote about in your book that I just loved. You were talking about us helping our children find their purpose in life. So what are some helpful questions to ask, and why is this even important?
Dr. Charles Fay: Well, first of all, it's important because people who have purpose... and I want to define purpose for everybody after I answer that question. [00:14:03] But people who have healthy purpose, true purpose, they're more joyful, they live longer, they have better relationships. It's one of those things that if you have it, you can handle just about anything.
Viktor Frankl, Holocaust, was in a Nazi death camp. He studied that, and he found that people who have a purpose, those people who were in that camp that had a purpose were the ones that could survive emotionally and actually were able to deal with that trauma better later on. You'd think none of us... I shouldn't say none of us, but very few of us can even imagine how awful that was. We can't even wrap our heads around that. But that sense of purpose can help us cope with some pretty, pretty horrible things. And that's what he was so famous for talking about, Viktor Frankl. So that's why.
So what is purpose? Purpose is making the world a better place. [00:15:11] Purpose is serving other people. Purpose is serving God. King Solomon's... this isn't in the book, by the way, but King Solomon looked for a purpose. If you're interested, look at Ecclesiastes. It's a very interesting biblical work on the search for purpose. And he tried a lot of things, gold, lots of horses, lots of wives, lots of this, lots of that, lots of fun, lots of partying, all meaningless, all a chasing after the wind. It won't get us that sense of purpose.
So what is purpose? It is serving other people. How do we do it? How do we find our purpose? So questions we ask our kids is, what do you love doing? Because our purpose comes out of our gifts. So God gave us those gifts for a purpose, okay? He gave us those gifts for a reason, to serve other people. That's the essence of servant leadership. [00:16:13] That's really what we're talking about here.
So we ask our kids, what are you really great at? We observe our kids, and we notice what their natural gifts are, and we know something is a gift. And this is how we know something is a gift, is when we engage in that activity and time goes by, we don't realize how much time has gone by because we're so into it. We love it. That's one criteria.
This is very important. One criteria for a gift is time goes by. It's so natural that we just do it. It feels effortless, and it's joyful.
Secondly, it helps other people. That's the definition of a gift. There's a lot in the book about purpose, by the way. If I tried to cover all of it right now, we'd all be confused. We'd walk away and think, wow, that was kind of neat, but I'm confused.
Love and Logic, my job has always been to oversimplify things so people could really grab a hold of them. So that's what we're going to do here. [00:17:18] So let's come in close here. We want to help our kids discover what they're naturally great at that helps other people. So let that sink into our ears. What are we naturally great at, and does that help other people?
And then we start asking our kids a series of questions. What do you love doing? What do you love doing? What would you do for free? If you could have a job doing something, what would it be? And we watch them, and we talk to teachers, and we talk to other people who know our kids well, and we identify those strengths. We're asking our kids, who is that going to serve? Who can you serve with that? How would you see yourself serving? [00:18:20]
Now, by the way, these questions we ask that are all laid out in the book are questions that we don't barrage our kids with. So we don't sit down and say, okay, let's talk about purpose, and then just barrage them with it. That's so counterproductive. No. The things like you're driving along in the car, and you're saying, "Honey, I noticed that you're really good at sewing. That really seems to be a gift. I wonder if you could use that. Can you see yourself using that to help other people, to serve other people? Who would those people be? How would you do that? That's exciting to think about."
You're just pondering these things in front of your kids. And you're not expecting them to have all this information they throw back at you. Well, Dad, I've been thinking about... No. No. Honestly, a lot of times kids don't seem like they're participating when we ask these questions. Those seeds are growing inside of their brains, inside of their hearts. [00:19:24]
And for us ourselves, a lot of times it's, what hardship have we had? What trauma have we had? What circumstances that have been so uncomfortable for us can we take and use to serve other people? I live in Colorado, not far from Columbine High School. There were many people, many people traumatized by that shooting, horrendous event.
Many, many people, the people who were able to heal and grow from that, as strange as that sounds, it's not easy, but the people who were able to heal and move forward were the people who took that and they went out and they created something to help other people. This organization called Rachel's Challenge, and do anti-bullying. And the school has done wonderful work for many, many years. So that's an important concept. [00:20:29]
So we're asking these questions. We're listening. We're not expecting kids to have a lot of feedback they share with us, but we're writing those things down. The most important part, it was stop again, spend the lion's share of your energy focusing on their gifts. See, so often in all of our relationships, it's so easy to start focusing on what other people do wrong or what they need to do better at. Happens in every relationship. It's a tendency that human beings have.
But friends, what would happen if you could say to yourself, I'm going to spend the lion's share of my time and energy focusing on what my wife's natural gifts are, or my husband's or my kids or my neighbors or my employees. [00:21:32] Of course, that doesn't mean that we're not going to give feedback that's necessary about things they need to change or we'd like them to change.
But here's a basic principle. Build others up. Build others up in their areas of strength so that they have the courage and the strength to tackle their areas of weakness.
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
[00:22:05] <music>
Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need. Unlike other parts of the world where there's not enough food, in America, the resources actually do exist.
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[00:23:33] <music>
Laura Dugger: It's interesting how you wrote about even the purpose of purpose for our kids. Just a few practical things. I'm just going to string together some lessons of yours. So from chapter two, you wrote, ultimately, your goals determine your behavior. Not that we're using this as a self-serving tool as parents. But I think there is a reality and a principle, even in scripture, I think of reaping and sowing. But encouraging our children and speaking words of life over them or over our spouse, you actually see that come out of them as well.
And as you talk about goal setting, you also write on page 48 that goal setting is also one of the best ways to develop your child's prefrontal cortex and mental strength to help set them up for success. Then you even gave one more practical tip somewhere later in the book that we can go first. We can share our purpose with our children. [00:24:43] I think this idea was just exciting to me, even with our children at young ages, that it's never too early, like you said, to plant those seeds.
Dr. Charles Fay: It's never too early. And see, when people see us having a purpose and a passion, they want to join along. Years ago, when I was learning to be a public speaker, I studied people. And I noticed that some of the people that I was most excited about listening to weren't that great of speakers. I mean, they stuttered a little bit, and they wore a bad suit, and they just were kind of nervous at times. But man, there's something about them where I was like, That dude is awesome. Man, I want to listen to that lady, you know, again. I want to... you know, so-and-so.
And then there'd be other people who were, man, they look good, they're flashy. Oh, yeah, they got all the right-hand movements, all that sort of stuff. But I thought, no, that's kind of not... just not... And I analyzed that for years, decades.
Somebody said it loud and clear to me. I was talking to a friend of mine, he says, "It's the people who have passion. People have a sincere purpose, and we're drawn to that. It's that authenticity. It's the realness. It's this person really believes this, and they're so excited about it that they just can't stand it. It's just jumping out of them. [00:26:10]
And so when we model that... and it can be about anything. Okay, so let's say I'm a garbage collector. I drive the garbage truck. I am so excited about the fact that if it wasn't for me, people would die of disease. This place would be a mess, you know? And kids see that, and they're like, "My dad has purpose. My mom has purpose.
You could be a heart surgeon. You could be a brain surgeon. You could be a garbage collector. You could be anything. But having that deeper purpose and communicating that, talking about it around our kids, letting them overhear it, super powerful.
Laura Dugger: This is a very proactive conversation, planning these ideas. I think of something else that would be really helpful to be proactive or to pre-decide would be wise ways to discipline. [00:27:09] So, Dr. Fay, I'm curious, do you have any specific examples of beneficial discipline for a variety of ages?
Dr. Charles Fay: Yeah Well, the first thing we need to learn as parents is how to not get pulled into arguments. Because if we can't, if our kids can argue with us, we're never going to be affected with anything else.
So parents, step one, when the kid starts to argue, don't think so hard about it. Don't try to talk sense into them. Because when we start lecturing and we start talking too much, what starts to happen is the kid thinks, "Wow, this argument is really working. Look at mom's face. I can control the tone of her voice, the color of her face, the longevity of her cardiovascular system."
And see, ironically, we're trying to control the kid, but they're really controlling us. They're getting us to say more words, get frustrated, that sort of thing. So as soon as the arguing starts, say to yourself, don't think so hard about this. [00:28:11]
The second step is just keep saying the same thing. You can pick mine. When my kids were younger. I love you too much to argue. I love you too much to argue. Now, that's discipline. See, discipline really means teaching kids the right way over the wrong way. That's basically what it's all about.
One of the fundamental aspects of discipline is being able to submit to authority figures. Now we're getting on the tough side of the road here a little bit. Your kids need to learn how to submit to you. This is not a democracy in this home. I don't say that to the kids. I'm saying it to you. We do it through action.
The effective parenting style is not a democratic where everybody gets to vote and we have debates about things. Absolutely not. It is a benevolent monarchy. [00:29:11] And the parents are the rulers, but they're the kind and loving, wise rulers.
See, because if a kid argues with you, what that really means is they think they should get their way all the time. Now, ultimately, who are we preparing our kids to have? Well, who are we preparing our kids to submit to for Christians? A political figure? Somebody who lets them vote on or the king of the universe? Christ, right?
So when kids don't learn how to submit to loving authority figures, they don't learn how to submit to loving authority, life is really hard for them. That's the essence of discipline is teaching our kids how to submit to loving, just authority.
So I want my kids early on to learn that when I say something I mean it and they can't argue with me and get me to back down or get me to get frustrated. [00:30:25] So, again, could argues I say to myself, no reasoning, no discussion, no debate, no voting, right? And then I calmly repeat: I love you too much to argue on. But that's not fair. I love you. They won't give up. We just keep on doing it. They're gonna get mad. Because we all get mad when we don't get our way. Some of us aren't that honest about it. They say, oh, no, I don't. No. We all get frustrated when we don't get our way. That's called the sin nature. We all get frustrated when we don't get our way. But we're all comforted when we don't get our way.
Let me say that again. We all get frustrated when we don't get our way, but we're all are comforted in the long run when we don't get our way because our way is not always the best way. In fact many times it is. So that's one of the very first skills. I love you too much to argue or I'll listen when your voice is calm or I'll be happy to listen to your ideas as long as I feel like you're not trying to get me to back down. [00:31:37] But you keep the same one. You repeat the same little love and logic one-liner every time.
I knew a mom who just said this. "Well, I want this. You got to buy this for me." "Mmh" "Well, how come you keep saying that?" "Mmh" "Well, that's driving me crazy." "Mmh" And I'll listen when your voice is calm. But she said she loved it. It was so easy for her. All she had to do. And now the kids are teenagers, by the way, and she's been doing it for years. And she'd say, "Mmh". And they're "we know you're just gonna say 'Mmh'".
She raised kids who really love her dearly, but they didn't always like her. Okay. There's a little nugget. They didn't always love her and they didn't always like her, but they love her dearly. Let's branch out from that. [00:32:36]
Another skill is being able to set effective limits that we can follow through often. So you want our yes to be yes and our no to be no. Important parenting principle, life principle: Our yes is yes and our no is no. But how do we do that/ By focusing only on what we can control.
See, who can I control?
Laura Dugger: Me.
Dr. Charles Fay: The harsh reality is I can't really control my kids. I can't really control my wife. I really can't control the direction the country goes here or there. I mean, there are very few things I can control. Of course, I do my civic duty and I do the best that I can. But ultimately the only thing that I truly can control and this is tough even is myself, right? [00:33:30]
We call this setting limits with enforceable statements. So when I set a limit with an enforceable statement, I'm describing what I'm gonna do and what I'm gonna allow. And I am not trying to tell the kid what to do. And I'm not issuing threats. You already heard a couple of them. "I'll listen when your voice is calm. I'll be happy to take you to your friends when the chores are done. I play games when I'm not having somebody yelling at me."
I mean how many of us have played candy land with our little kids, right, and they start to lose. And now they're all upset. "You're cheating. That's not fair. You're mean." "I'll be happy to play with you as long as this is fun for me." Which is one I use a lot.
And then as soon as it's not fun for me, what happens? I get up and I go. [00:34:33] "But I'll be good." I know you'll be good and we'll try again some other time. And the other time will be pretty soon. But they need to see that there is action associated with the limit. If we want to get to the essence of discipline, let's get to it.
Essence of discipline. Number one. We have a good relationship with our kids. We love them and we show them that and we focus mostly on their strengths, and they feel bonded to us and they want to please us at heart. Relationship is part of discipline. It's teaching them the right way versus the wrong way. So that has to come first.
The second that comes first is that we set limits. We describe what we're going to do and what we're going to allow. Yeah, and they're fair limits. We do our best to be fair. And then when they don't live by those limits, we don't nag, we don't remind, we don't rescue, we take loving action. We are empathetic and we take loving action. [00:35:33]
So a dad says to me, "Oh, I went to Love and Logic years to go. My kids were totally out of control. My wife passed away when they were really young. I felt so guilty. I felt so bad for them that I let them do everything they wanted to do. Oh, they wouldn't listen to anything. They were tyrants." I said, "Oh, how are they now? Oh, they're good now. I mean, they're not perfect people, but I'm not. They're good. They're good. My daughter's turned out great."
I said, "Well, what made the difference?" He said, "I took them to Chuck E. Cheese." I said, "What?" He said, "Kids were out of control in public. Oh, that was the worst time. So I took him to Chuck E. Cheese." I thought, "I'm not getting this." He says, "No, you don't understand." I said, "I don't understand." He says, "I realized that one of the problems I had was that we'd go out and they'd act up and I'd say, "If you keep acting up we're leaving. But I never would because I'd feel too guilty." [00:36:30]
And so he said, "I decided to take him to Chuck E. Cheese because it's kind of a chaotic place. Most of the time and I thought, "I won't back down. I'll be glad to get out of this." I thought, "Well, that's kind of a wise idea there." And he says, "I took them to Chuck E. Cheese. We were actually having a good time. But then now they're starting to act up like crazy, right?" So he said to me, he said, "Guys, we get to stay as long as it's fun for me and there are no problems." And they kept up. And you know what he did? "He got up and he started walking away. And they said, "Daddy, daddy. Why are we leaving?" He says, "This is not fun. This isn't working for me."
And they didn't think he'd really follow through because he never had. But he kept walking. Pretty soon they catch up and they said, "Daddy, daddy, we just got our pizza." He said, "Don't worry about the pizza. Somebody else will get it. I love you guys. Let's go home. This isn't fun for me." [00:37:26]
They got in the car, oh, and they were crying and he felt like the worst dad in the world. He's driving along and he's just feeling so guilty. But he said to himself, "I'm going to stay strong. I'm going to stay strong." And he drove home. "Oh, and it was a miserable day," he said.
Well, he started doing that more. They went to the park one day and he said, "Guys, we get to stay as long as there's no problems, no throwing sand, no running away from me. And as long as you're staying right by me." And they tested it, didn't they?
Let's think about human beings. How far do we need to get into the Old Testament to see people start testing limits? I think it's only maybe two chapters or so. It's really not very long. That's what we do. That's what human beings do. So don't be surprised when your kids do it. So they tested the limit and he just starts saying, "Hey guys, we're going home." And he just went home. [00:38:26] No warnings, no reminders. No lectures.
See, what kind of a blessing is it for our kids if they can learn to listen the first time? Is that unreasonable? Is it because we're on a power trip or because we want them to have happy lives?
Laura Dugger: Absolutely, the second.
Dr. Charles Fay: And the whole time he says, "I'm hating it. Honestly, Dr. Fay, I just don't like it. I'm not comfortable with any of this. I feel like I'm being mean, I'm being criticized by other people." People are saying, Well, in this book it says you should never do something like that. You know, I'm getting all of that and I'm so conflicted I'm feeling the tension.
He said what changed things is we were in Home Depot not too long after these training sessions as we'll call it. I didn't have a plan at all and I needed to be there. I really couldn't leave. And they're starting to carry on with each other. And I just looked at him and I said, Oh. And the older one sent to the younger one. But they were. It blew me away. How did they learn? It'll be good by learning that my word is gold and that I was actually going to take some action. [00:39:51]
Laura Dugger: I love that. Then that goes back to the letting your “yes” be yes, and your “no” be no. It also reminds me I believe it's Hebrews 12:11. It says, "No discipline is pleasant at the time, but painful later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it." I think that beautifully illustrates it.
Dr. Charles Fay: I love that verse. A harvest of righteousness and peace. Think about that. So we feel guilty for doing it, but we're actually giving our kids the most beautiful things in life through it. And you know what we're really doing when we're doing this? We're preparing for the day when our kid is about ready to do something that's really dangerous and we have no control over it. They're 17 years old, they say, "I'm going to this party. I don't care." And you're thinking, "I know that it's in a bad part of town. I know there's been shootings there. I know there's kids there's gonna be drugs there." You're thinking all these things. [00:40:57]
Are you gonna have enough respect and love in their eyes to be able to pull it off when you say, "Don't go. I'm concerned about you." Have you upped the odds for having that much strength and love in their eyes? That's what we're really going for.
Now if I've never been a loving authority figure, chances are they're going to look at me and think, "Well, what does he know? He's kind of a nice guy over here. He's kind of a tyrant over here, whatever." But they don't have that love and that discipline experience from us. That makes all the difference in the world.
Laura Dugger: Guess what? We are no longer an audio-only podcast. We now have video included as well. If you want to view the conversation each week, make sure you watch our videos. [00:42:01] We're on YouTube and you can access videos or find answers to any of your other questions about the podcast when you visit thesavvysauce.com.
All of these topics that we've touched on are covered in your book. I just want to address one more area Because we don't talk about this a lot. But you and Dr. Amen agree in your book where it says, "Mental health is really brain health." You make the argument that mental health follows a healthy brain.
If we're going specifically, it's pages 22 through 24. But can you walk us through what it means when you say "bright minds"?
Dr. Charles Fay: So it's basically an acronym. B stands for blood flow. The more blood flow, the more oxygen, the more cleansing of the brain, the more circulation going on there, obviously the better the brain is going to work. [00:43:03]
Exercise, so important. You know talking about kids, so important. There should be very strong limits over screen time, by the way. In fact, the less the better. Highly effective parents now are saying that they're really moving back towards traditional model of schooling where kids are doing things with pencil and paper. They're not on the screen all the time. They're setting firm limits where kids don't have their own phones until maybe they're older teenagers.
I mean that sounds radical, if we look at the way the rest of the world is running, right? It sounds radical. Oh my goodness. How could you possibly do that? Now, do we really want our kids to be as low-functioning as the rest of the world? Simple question, right? Do we really want that?
You know, we used to say prepare kids for the real world. No. [00:44:04] Now I say, prepare kids to be shining stars. Not the real world. Now I'm preaching. I'm sorry. I get that way.
R is rational. Thinking the truth. We tell ourselves lies all the time. You know, I'm not good enough. I'm a bad person. I don't know who I am. I have no identity. There's no hope for me. Is that reality? No, that's not rational thinking. It's truth.
Every time I entertain or harbor irrational thought, that creates problems for my brain. It's actually destructive to brain cells because it creates stress and stress damages brain cells. In the book we talk a lot about mental hygiene. How can we be focused on the truth and help our kids focus on the truth? What is the truth? It's what God says. It's God's word. That's the truth. That's the truth. You do have a purpose. You are loved. You're made in God's image. And you as a parent that applies to you too, right? Don't forget that. [00:45:23]
I is for inflammation. We know that when there's infections, when there's any sort of injury when people over-exercise, it creates inflammation. And that creates problems for the brain. We don't think well when there's inflammation.
G is for genetics. Daniel put that in there. I'm so glad though that if we know what our genetics are, we can do things that overcome those genetic challenges. So it's not like, oh, my dad had this or my mom had this and I'm doomed. No, it's good to know about that, take that into account, and take steps to correct in that area.
Head trauma. Kids have to wear helmets. We're not fans of kids playing football. Oh, there you go. I just lost a bunch of people. It's pretty traumatic for the brain. I think if you talk to any brain expert, they'll say the same thing. [00:46:35]
Toxins. That's what the t stands for. So we're going down this acronym bright minds, right? This is all in the book. I'm looking at page 22 and 23. But the toxins are really an issue. And so when we have a kid who's starting to make poor decisions and maybe basic discipline isn't working and we're seeing some behavior that's pretty scary, we want to be analyzing these things, too because I've seen kids who had exposure to some toxins. And all the discipline, all the psychological work in the world is not gonna cure that problem if there's something going on with that. Molds. Some forms of mold very very strongly related to brain health issues, physical issues.
Minds. M stands for mental health. You know, mental health. Mental health is the single most powerful thing you can do to help your kids to have good mental health is to be a strong and loving parent. [00:47:56]
Every one of your kids is going to be different. Everyone is going to have different challenges. But that strength and that love and the firmness and the kindness can help overcome so many of those. And that's the main contributor to mental health. I mean, we're relational. People, human beings are relational.
When we have relationships we are far less likely to have mental health issues. And brain health issues all dovetails together. Immune system problems. That's the I. That's another thing we look at is, is there an immune system issue? Is there an overactive or underactive immune system or infections going on?
Neuro hormone issues. And all this sounds deep. Parents, what do you do with this? You're listening to this and you're thinking, wow, now he's going into a lot of stuff. [00:48:54] Okay, here's what I recommend. You get the book. You focus on the basic discipline. You do the preventative things. If those things aren't working, you start looking back at the book. I have to look at the book. I forget what's in this book sometimes. I wrote it, all for crying out loud. I'm a mess. It's good, though.
I was reading it today and I thought, "This makes sense." But see, I have to go back to it and ask myself constantly, am I really following these things? So you start with the basic discipline. Those things aren't working. You go back to the book, you start taking away at the different subjects we bring up and you're going to have success. It's going to give you a road map. But there's a lot there.
So I just talked about neurohormone issues. That's something that a doctor has to look at. We talk about the D stands for diabetes and obesity. Those two things have a dramatic impact on brain health. [00:49:59]
Lastly, sleep. Oh, my goodness, sleep. Sleep's huge. I would say that the significant percentage of the learning and behavioral issues we see with kids, huge percentage, way over 50% of those problems are dramatically impacted by lack of quality sleep.
Laura Dugger: Wow.
Dr. Charles Fay: Way too many kids are staying up at night and way too many parents are allowing their kids to have screens in their bedroom. Let me share with you two things you can do that will have a dramatic impact on your family. They're really simple, but hard. They're simple because the concept isn't very complicated. They're hard because you're going to get pushback.
Simple. Gospel. Jesus, I need you. I can't do this myself. [00:50:56] I'm a sinner. I need you as my savior. I'm going to follow you. So here are two things you can do. If you do these, I can guarantee you your life's going to be better. You're gonna have healthier kids, healthier brains.
No screens in their bedrooms. They don't take their screens into their bedrooms during the day, during the night, any time. If they do have to do their homework, they do it in the kitchen. No screens in your bedroom.
Too many TVs, too many screens in your bedroom. You do those two things, life's going to be way better. It's going to be real uncomfortable at first for some people but life's going to be way better in the long term.
Laura Dugger: I think you're kind of leading us into, I believe it's chapter nine, where you get so practical about implementing this and educating us on the importance of mental health and brain health, but helping us to be proactive to improve those areas. You list natural ways. I'll just go over a few of these that I've gleaned from chapter nine and I'd love to hear you go a little bit deeper on whichever one jumps out. [00:52:07]
Even as simple as eating protein that supports it. You talk about eating lots of protein and produce, the importance of having other high quality calories, and limiting sugar or anything boxed or processed. That's the section where you do go into limiting screens. And then also maximizing time with healthy people and maximizing time outdoors and getting physical exercise, investing in friendships, staying hydrated. Again, simple one. That is where you talk about getting plenty of sleep. Those are just some examples.
Dr. Charles Fay: Things that are best for us, we look at them like, oh man, do I really have to do that? There's this tension inside of us and it's so easy for us to get rebellious. So one thing I want to be really clear is we're not reaching to you and saying you have to do this, if you don't do this, you're a bad person, that sort of thing. That's not what this is all about. [00:53:19]
But I will say, how can I make the choices that ultimately bring glory to God? The healthier I am physically, emotionally, spiritually, relationally, the more likely that I am going to be able to do that in ways that I feel good about.
Laura Dugger: Dr. Charles, there is just so much that we could continue to glean as wisdom from you. So where are some places you could direct us after this conversation if we want to continue learning more?
Dr. Charles Fay: Well, the book that I have here, again, it's just packed full of stuff. Practical. It's called, I don't know if you can see it or not, Raising Mentally Strong Kids. It's got a long subtitle. [00:54:15] If you look anywhere online, you're going to see that Daniel Amen, MD, Charles Fay, PhD, Raising Mentally Strong Kids. You're going to find that anywhere quality books are sold.
You can find out about Love and Logic by going to loveandlogic.com or you can look at danielamenmd.com or all over the web, you can find us there. And I think you'll enjoy the book because we've made mistakes, we've learned from millions of parents and years of research.
Laura Dugger: Well, thank you truly for this resource. It is chock full of goodness and wisdom and experience, and that is a labor of love. So I appreciate that. We'll also link to all of these places in the show notes for today's episode.
But you also are aware that we're called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or insight. So as my final question for you today, Dr. Fay, what is your savvy sauce? [00:55:26]
Dr. Charles Fay: Oh, well, I have to say there's so many times where I find myself thinking, I don't know what to do. Any of you have that experience? You feel like the world is crashing down on you and I don't know what to do. There's no clear direction here in one way or another. So one of the things I want to say loud and clear is that my savvy sauce is saying to myself, "Lord, I don't know what to do, but my eyes are on you." Because I'm not smart enough to handle all this. But He'll guide us.
Laura Dugger: So good. Lord, I don't know what to do, but my eyes are on you. Thank you. You've given us so many, even one-liners that are memorable. So we can take this and apply it. And you've given a lot of encouragement to us as parents. So I'm grateful for your time and I just want to say thank you for being my guest. [00:56:29]
Dr. Charles Fay: Oh, thank you, Laura. Just a real blessing. Thanks for watching and listening to everybody. We're so thankful for you. Take care.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. [00:57:28]
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.
Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen. [00:58:27]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:59:28]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
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