198. Divine Productivity with Matt Perman
“Our people must learn to do good deeds to meet necessary demands [whatever the occasion may require], so that they will not be unproductive.”
Titus 3:14 AMP
“For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; and to godliness, mutual affection; and to mutual affection, love. For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But whoever does not have them is nearsighted and blind, forgetting that they have been cleansed from their past sins.”
2 Peter 1:5-9 NIV
**Transcription Below**
Matt Perman is author of the best-selling book What’s Best Next: How the Gospel Transforms the Way You Get Things Done and is a frequent speaker on leadership, work, and theology from a gospel-centered perspective. He has worked at Desiring God Ministries as director of strategy and The King’s College NYC as director of career development. Currently he is a manager of strategy at Bed Bath & Beyond. He received his M.Div. in biblical and theological studies from Southern Seminary and lives in New York City. He blogs at whatsbestnext.com.
Questions we discuss:
What exactly does God have to say about productivity and why do you think He cares about it?
You teach is "Productivity is a fruit of the Holy Spirit." Will you say more about that?
How do we recognize if we've gone too far focusing only on productivity?
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Sam Leman Eureka
Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website
Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!
Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today over 55 years later at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over Central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at LemanGm.com.
My guest for today is Matt Perman. Matt has been writing about gospel-driven productivity for many years, and he's going to share more about productivity as a fruit of the Spirit. He's also going to share unexpected lessons about kindness and generosity and how they relate to bringing God glory.
Much of this conversation is based on his book, What's Best Next: How the Gospel Transforms the Way You Get Things Done. [00:01:18]
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Matt.
Matt Perman: Thanks so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Laura Dugger: Well, will you just start us off by sharing a bit about yourself and your current phase of life?
Matt Perman: Yeah, definitely. I grew up in a Christian home, which was wonderful. My parents, they just had a Bible on the coffee table in the living room, so I'd dip into it every once in a while out of curiosity. I kind of appreciated. It was kind of a low-pressure environment in terms of faith. You know, it was recognized, these things are true, these are things we should believe, but there wasn't pressure put on us. I actually responded very well to that.
So I came to faith early, had some ups and downs, but really started taking my faith seriously in college. I got involved in some great Christian ministries at the secular college that I went to, and so that was a wonderful experience. [00:02:18]
And then I worked for a well-known pastor and author, John Piper, after college for many years, running the web department in strategy. Now I am in a totally new stage of life. I'm living in New York City, and I am working at a Fortune 500 company, and having a blast seeing how all of these productivity practices apply in the corporate world, and how maybe you need to customize them a bit sometimes. But really what I'm finding is, wow, they also work in this corporate business environment as well as regular life and the nonprofits that I've worked in previously.
Laura Dugger: Wow. And that is fascinating. Such different areas of life, but that it all applies. You have studied and written about biblical productivity for years, so what exactly does God have to say about productivity, and why do you think He cares about it? [00:03:19]
Matt Perman: It's interesting. He does have a lot to say about productivity. It's fascinating. When I first started working on the book, I got some pushback from people. They were like, That's not very spiritual, and I thought, well, what are you talking about? God invented all of life. As Abraham Kuyper said, Jesus owns every square inch of this world. Every area of life is something He is sovereign over.
So He cares about productivity because He created a world in which we need to be productive, first of all. I didn't come up with this idea that we need to eat food, we need to work in order to be able to make a living and have enough food to eat and shelter and all of this. But there's two really big biblical themes that come into play.
First, there is teaching that God expects us to get a return on our lives, which is fascinating. That's not a monetary return. It's possible for some people that could be part of it, but it's a return of doing good. [00:04:21] We see this in the parable of the talents, for example, where each of the three people are given a different amount, and two of them go back and they get a return, and the third comes back and says, "I was afraid, I buried it in the sand." And that one gets rebuked.
The point is, God has given us resources, gifts, talents, amazing things, and we are to put those things to use. Not to make as much money as possible for ourselves, but to bring blessing to others, to make life better for others. And that's the biblical theme on productivity.
Then productivity practices help us do that better. Because the fact is, we're in a world with limited resources, so we have to make trade-off decisions. There are certain actions that are going to have a higher output than other actions. And productivity is about determining what those are and then doing them in the most efficient way possible so that we can get the best output from what we do. [00:05:26]
Again, the purpose of that output is not for just our own enrichment or our own advancement. It's for the benefit of other people. And that's something that's very unique about a Christian perspective. Not that non-Christians never take that perspective, but it is really at the core of a Christian perspective on productivity.
Laura Dugger: Could you just give a few personal examples of how you do this, either in work or in life outside of work?
Matt Perman: Yeah, definitely. In work, I do come with a mindset of, how do I make the most of my time? And I keep lists. I keep all sorts of lists. Some of this is I'm just doing what gives me the ability to accomplish my job well. So if other people have different approaches, that's fine too. Because I think there can be different productivity styles.
But if I get a big project, I will brainstorm all the tasks that are going to be involved. [00:06:27] You can't know them all in advance, but to the best I can. And then I organize them into logical groupings. And I get this good list at the beginning of the project and I update it as the project goes along and things change on it. But that list really helps me make sure nothing gets overlooked and it helps me go about the work in an orderly fashion. So I find that really helpful.
Outside of work, part of productivity, it's not just about efficiency. It's also just finding cool ways to help people and innovation and doing things unconventionally. I think it's pretty neat to find ways to help others, especially the global poor, in ways that would not have been possible before the growth of technology.
For example, even like lending to entrepreneurs in the developing world through Kiva, I think that is a productivity practice because that's something that you couldn't have done even 20 years ago. [00:07:27] You have no efficient way to get that money to them. But now because of the networks that Kiva has developed and their website where you can identify entrepreneurs and choose which one you're going to lend to, you have the ability to make a difference in Nigeria or Cameroon, helping someone buy a goat or a cow or whatever it is so that they can make a better living and grow their own entrepreneurial endeavor and be more productive themselves. So you can help others be more productive through these creative, amazing tools that were not even possible 20 years ago.
Laura Dugger: I love that. Thank you for sharing examples. I feel like that gives us a picture in our minds or something to grab onto. But if we go back to big picture, how do you put this all together and boil it down to define gospel-driven productivity?
Matt Perman: So this is important. One of the big passages in the New Testament on productivity is, of course, Ephesians 5:15-17. [00:08:33] The whole context of chapter 5 is really important. But it's right there where Paul tells us to make the most of the time because the days are evil. That is a helpful definition of productivity, making the most of the time.
The question is making the most of the time to do what? There's always a purpose in anything that we do, including our productivity. So at the heart of gospel-driven productivity is two things. First, you have a purpose, which is something greater than yourself. It is the glory of God.
And if we ask what glorifies God, one of the biggest things that glorifies Him is doing good for other people in His name. That can be spiritual good, but it can also be material good. It can be emotional good, so emotional support to people. It can be relational good — being a friend, being an advocate, doing good for people in all dimensions of the human experience. And being motivated by a desire to see God glorified and other people benefited. So the motives here are really important. [00:09:49]
There are some systems of thought where they say intentions don't matter, what matters is results. And we know what road is paved with good intentions. and they kind of minimize good intentions. I don't believe that good intentions take the place. If your actions are getting bad results and hurting people, having good intentions does not make up for that. So I'm not saying intentions are all that matter. We also have to make sure that we are acting with competence and getting good results. But intentions do matter. That is part of virtue. And God cares about the heart. So He wants us to have a certain motivation in what we do.
So with gospel-driven productivity, I try to make that primary. And that's why I talk a lot about the why we should be productive and so forth. And then within that framework of our hearts and minds, then use cool tools and tactics to get your work done faster with less energy and in less time. [00:10:53] Use all that stuff.
There's a bunch of great secular books out there on productivity. Learn from them because in common grace, God has blessed the world with all sorts of wisdom. It doesn't just come from Christians because God is good to all people, at least in the common sense, in the good sense. And then there's also saving grace and special revelation in Scripture. But learn from common grace and use every helpful tip that you can find to get more done for the glory of God.
Laura Dugger: One of those books, obviously, that I would recommend is your first one, What's Best Next. In the foreword to that book, there are some unexpected quotes that are highlighted that I just love for you to explain. So first you write, "Gospel-driven productivity is about bringing the gospel to all nations." So can you say more about that? [00:11:57]
Matt Perman: Yeah, definitely. I think it's important that we see our productivity in the context of God's plan for the whole Christian life. One of the things that God wants us to be doing is evangelism and missions. In fact, I would say one of the purposes of our productivity is to help reach the nations better with the gospel because there are still... I forget the exact numbers, but it's something like a billion people who still do not have good access to the gospel.
We need to be taking action to address that. I read a great, in many ways, productivity book years ago before I wrote What's Best Next called The 4-Hour Workweek. It's such a helpful book. And it's written in such a fun way and gives all these tools. But the purpose is basically to get your work done in four hours so you can do whatever you want with the rest of your time. [00:12:59]
And I thought, What if we kind of took that concept, because I think there's something good about that, but tweaked it, and instead of doing what you want with the time you free up, you are investing it in God's purposes and in serving others. And missions is one of those purposes.
Now, Tim Ferriss, he's the author of the book. To be fair, later in the book, he does talk about service later on. So it's not like he ignores that and leaves that behind. But we can bring an even richer definition to that as Christians.
One of the things that God wants us to do is reach the nations with the gospel. So there are two ways productivity practices can help you with that. First, they can help you free up more time so that you get your work done faster. And then in your home life, you get your stuff at home done faster. And now you got more time. What are you going to do with that? Are you going to watch Netflix? No, at least not usually. [00:13:59] Find ways to help in the cause of the great commission with the time that you freed up from your good productivity practices.
Second, I was really excited as the book was released that a lot of humanitarian organizations and missions organizations, people working at them, were being helped by the book. We're reading the book and being helped by it, like Food for the Hungry based in Arizona and other places. Even though their primary focus is meeting physical needs, they also have a gospel focus and do it in Jesus' name and do evangelism.
This is one of the purposes in my book. I wanted to help people that are working for global poverty relief and world missions. I wanted to help them do their jobs better, do their jobs more effectively so they can help more people, and ideally, maybe not get burned out by having a manageable work-life balance and being able to get more return out of the effort and energy that they put in. [00:15:02]
So that's the second way gospel-driven productivity is about bringing the gospel to all nations. It can help those who are directly involved in that work do that work better and reach more people and get through challenges and obstacles that are standing in their way.
Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.
[00:15:20] <music>
Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago.
If you visit their dealership today though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity.
Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car-buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple "Welcome to Sam Leman's". Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different.
I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car buying process doesn't have to be something you dread, so come see for yourself at Sam Leman Chevrolet Buick in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you and they appreciate your business.
Learn more at their website LemanEureka.com or visit them on Facebook by searching for "Sam Leman Eureka". You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.
[00:16:43] <music>
Laura Dugger: Another point you teach on is — I'll just quote it here — "Productivity is a fruit of the Holy Spirit." So Matt, will you just say a little bit more about that?
Matt Perman: Yeah, absolutely. I thought hard about productivity and the biblical connections, especially because of these people saying, Hey, this isn't spiritual. What are you doing?" I had this sense early on productivity is connected to the biblical mandate of good works. So I did a lot of study on what the Bible teaches about good works, and then that's very much related to love.
In Jonathan Edwards' great sermon series on 1 Corinthians 13 called Charity and Its Fruit, it's funny that passage is often read at weddings, but really that is a charter for the Christian life and for productivity because it's all about love. He has a series of sermons and it's great. He breaks down the passage. And of course, as we know in there, Paul tells us what love is and describes it. [00:17:49]
One of the things he says is love is kind. And I dug into that meaning of kindness. And kindness, it's not just being nice or being pleasant. It means a disposition to do good for others freely and abundantly. That's the meaning of kindness. And I was like, "Well, that's what I mean by productivity because that's our aim in our productive actions is to bring benefit to other people. So productivity and kindness are really overlapping concepts.
Of course, then over in Galatians, where Paul gives us the fruit of the spirit, kindness is one of the fruits that he lists. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc. So when we understand productivity in the right way, that it's about doing good for others, that is being kind, then immediately we see, Hey, it is a fruit of the spirit.
Now, crucial to this is recognizing what I've been saying all along is that the purpose is doing good. It's not necessarily monetary gain or anything like that. [00:18:51] It's just getting greater output from the same input or less input. And that output is the type of thing that benefits others and helps them have their needs met and grow closer to God.
Laura Dugger: That makes so much sense, especially when we think about being on the receiving end. The first thing that comes to mind is we moved homes in 2022, just moved across town, but the neighbors came around us and offered meals at different times. And I remember some of them were also in busy seasons like us. They all have young children at home. I thought about this specifically, wow, they did not choose to use their time to veg out and watch Netflix. They structured their day in order to bless our family as well, make extra food, and it helped us so much in a time of need.
So just to put skin on everything that you were sharing, that makes so much sense. [00:19:50] And we're so appreciative for people who live this way. I love that definition of kindness.
Matt Perman: That is a fantastic example. Yes, that is productivity in action right there.
Laura Dugger: Will you also elaborate on why you say on page 95, quote, "Generosity is also the best way to be productive in this life," end quote.
Matt Perman: Yeah, definitely. That also ties in with the key part of what I mean by gospel-driven productivity, which I forgot to mention. Because if our productivity is going to be gospel-centered, then we have to think about not just our motive as we really do, which I talked about earlier, but also our manner. The actions we take we need them to be done in a way that reflects God and reflects the gospel.
So if we think of the gospel, what attributes of God does the gospel especially manifest? And of course, love, sacrifice, concern for us, and generosity. [00:20:55] One of the pastors at my church when I was growing up said, God always gives more than enough. God is a very generous God. And we see that in the cross. He's willing to give of His own Son to meet our needs, bring us back into a relationship with Him. He's very generous.
And if we look at Jesus throughout the gospels, obviously sometimes He's very direct with people, that can be kind, but He's also very gracious. He hung out with tax collectors and sinners. People were attracted to Him. Jesus has a gracious demeanor. And we see this reflected in Paul as well. I think Paul is a great example of Jesus, as well as the other apostles were as well. One of the things that stands out about Paul is how gracious he is with people.
So part of being productive is letting everything we do be infused with grace, which means especially treating people well. A lot of people, when they think of productivity, they're thinking only of our individual actions, like drive, discipline, initiative, perseverance, and those sorts of things. [00:22:04] And that's true. That's very important.
But one of my aims in the book was to broaden our concept of productivity and realize there's not just these individual drivers of productivity. We also have to recognize there are social drivers of productivity. That's how we relate to other people, because certain ways of relating to other people are going to be more effective or less effective, as well as be more accurate reflections of God or less accurate reflections of God. And we treat people well, which means especially treat them in a way that's gracious. We're going to be reflecting God accurately.
Ironically, this also will have better results for us most of the time, not always, but better results for us because people tend to want to collaborate and partner with those who are kind and gracious and treat them well. Whereas if you are rough with people and rude, a lot of times people are not going to want to cooperate with you. So it's going to be harder to get things done. It's going to take longer. You're going to have more resistance. Well, that's not productive. [00:23:07]
Ironically, not only is generosity the right thing to do, it also tends to get better results for you. Of course, that's part of the meaning of productivity. You get better results with less effort if you treat people well. So we need to let generosity infuse the way we treat and interact with everybody. That is a key part of what it means to really act according to gospel-driven productivity.
Laura Dugger: I love it because what I'm hearing is that it's great to be ambitious. And the "so that" is so that we can love God and love our neighbor as ourselves. And you're making the distinction, not selfish ambition, but it is great to be ambitious and use that to love others well.
Matt Perman: Yes. Ambition for others is a crucial and beautiful thing.
Laura Dugger: How can we be assured that our productivity or our efforts are eternally fruitful? [00:24:10]
Matt Perman: It's really important here to have this broader definition of productivity that I'm talking about. It's not just more money, certainly not even chiefly more money. It's not more leisure time. It's not just, hey, my life is going better. I have more peace of mind. There is this other focus. It is for others, not selfish.
Then this motivation, not only for the good of others but for the glory of God so that they would find their needs fully met in God. This motive is a big piece of it. I mean, it really is because God looks at the heart. We only have so much control over the outcomes of our work. Sometimes almost no control. Sometimes we have a measure of control. But we never have total control over the outcomes.
I like how Martin Luther would put it and so many other Christians since then. Work your hardest and leave the results to God. So don't measure your productivity by what you see. [00:25:12] God is the one, you know, in terms of eternal productivity, He's the one who knows all of that.
The most obscure person who no one has ever heard of might actually be one of the most productive people on the planet because they're doing incredible things for the glory of God. They might not be well-known things, they might not have status or anything like that, but they're doing exactly what God wants them to do and nobody knows about it. So we can't measure based on human terms necessarily.
At the same time, if the things you're doing just persistently get no results, you've got to change your strategy. The point there is adjust because you're trying to add. The point is to help people, not just feel good about yourself because I'm trying.
So if you're not getting results that does tell you you should probably adapt, make some changes. But nonetheless, don't fret over what's not in your control. So you act with good motives, according to the best that you know, and you leave the results to God. [00:26:11]
And you have this broader definition of productivity that it is about benefiting people and helping people come to know Him better, not about your own personal peace and affluence. Then if you focus your actions on the things that God values, so building relationships, meeting the needs of the people in your path, especially if they are oppressed and marginalized, helping people come to know Him better or see Him more clearly, being willing to be bold but tactful, these types of things are the productive things.
So if you do them from faith out in reliance on Christ, so He's working through you and you have the purpose of his glory rather than your own, you will be acting in ways that are eternally productive. So as we see here, making sure we're eternally productive doesn't mean being the time nut who schedules every minute of his day. [00:27:13] Unless you really thrive doing that. I think I've met one person who does. I don't think anyone else.
But don't come up with these artificial standards of things that seem productive, but really are not like over-scheduling yourself or trying to over-control yourself. That's not necessary. That's not what it's about. You got to maintain a measure of freedom and spontaneity in everything.
Laura Dugger: Okay, I'd love to press in a little bit more to that probably because I'm feeling a little convicted with that last point. But as a mom of four young kids serving our family and trying to do some work on the side, I would love to know what is your encouragement for scheduling margin so that that spontaneity can still happen.
Matt Perman: Yeah, Marge, especially with, you know, four young kids that can get very, very difficult. John Piper said this thing long ago in a sermon, that the fruit of spontaneity grows in the garden of discipline. [00:28:13]
So having certain discipline routines, like with the kids and with your own devotional time and things like that. And then with young kids, a lot of times, you know, they're going to almost be taking up almost all of your time. But you can have even some disciplined routines that allow spontaneity. I mean, even things like — this is interesting — having meals together as a family is a type of combination of discipline and spontaneity.
The discipline is, you know, you're cooking dinner, you're sitting down and you're eating together. And sometimes that might be chaotic. But during that time together, there's a lot of spontaneity. You've created a forum in which the family is freely interacting and maybe talking about things or whatever. So you have spontaneity in there as well.
Then permission to take time for yourself. I think a lot of people these days they're going overboard on self-care. [00:29:14] I think self-care is a good thing and all of that. But they talk as if the essence of virtue is attending to our own needs and our own self-care. And it's not. The definition of virtue is literally the opposite of that.
Of course, we have to do it in a sustainable way. So we have to take time. And Jesus did this time for ourselves in time where the pressure's off as much as possible. So giving ourselves permission to do that.
Then it can be hard to find ways to do that. That can be one of the biggest challenges with young kids, which can look like definitely partnership, like each spouse helping free up the other to take time, whatever type of break they need, things like that. Getting up extra early, although that's tiring. Or after you get the kids down, having some time to yourself. It truly is a big challenge when the kids are young. There's no question about that. [00:30:13]
So just letting the pressure be off, even about being perfect and having everything done, even up to maybe your very legitimate, ordinary standards. Sometimes I let even my desk at work get a bit out of control. Or like if I'm working on a writing project or something, I don't always have everything neat and stuff because I know how to get things back in order when I want to, when it's time. But I'm taking the time I would have spent keeping things in order in order to invest it in other ways. And that's okay.
So lowering our standards about certain things in order to give our focus where it's really being called for or where we're really being pressed over is definitely okay.
Laura Dugger: That's really helpful, Matt. Thank you for that.
I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work. And we appreciate each of you so very much. [00:31:13] If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts? Five-star ratings and reviews help us reach more people around the globe, and that promotes our goal of sharing joy. So join us in that endeavor with your valuable feedback. Thanks again for being here with us.
How would you say that we can recognize if we've gone too far and started to focus only on productivity?
Matt Perman: I think it was David Allen who said too controlled is out of control. You know, there are several different ways focusing only on productivity can manifest itself. Here's just a small way, which I think we all can relate to. You get to the end of the day and you're like, Man, I did not get done what I wanted to get done today. I only got half the stuff on my list crossed off or maybe only one thing on them. Or I had planned to get a whole lot more done and be in a totally different spot at the end of the day, and you're not there. [00:32:17]
Give yourself grace. Don't beat yourself up over that. Don't feel like, man, I'm lost, I've missed out now because I'm behind on my plans. It's okay because probably the original plan wasn't realistic and surprises happen and all of that. So giving ourselves grace. Not only showing grace to others, but giving ourselves grace is important. And if you're not giving yourself grace, then that can be a sign of you're focusing only on productivity or focusing on it too much.
Then another sign that we might be focusing only on productivity is if we're only looking at results and not the also improving the capacity to get the results. Stephen Covey talks about there's two things you have to care about productivity. There is the productivity itself, the results, but also the productive capacity. That's the ability to produce.
Sometimes we get really focused on the production and then the ability to produce declines. [00:33:18] A clear example, this would be if you never take your car in for an oil change because you don't want to take the time to do that or you're too busy with this, well, eventually your car is going to have some problems. So you have to take that time out to get the oil changed to maintain the productive capacity of your car.
Also with us ourselves, we've got to take the time to rest. We've got to take the time away to recharge. We've got to allow spontaneous things that come up to change our plans, change our schedule. All those things, even though they might not feel productive at the time, they actually are productive because they help preserve our energy and our ability to keep producing. They keep us in a happy frame of mind, in a good mindset.
Then the other way that we might be over-focusing on productivity is that we just have these narrow definitions like, how much money am I making? [00:34:17] Well, you try to work so fast that it takes all the joy out of it. It's not just about getting more done. It's about getting more done in a way that is satisfying. And sometimes that might be going slower. So recognizing this balance between speed and satisfaction, I think is also a very important thing. It's not always about speed.
Laura Dugger: We know that good works do not offer us salvation. They can't. But good works are vital to a vibrant faith life. So can you just define good works?
Matt Perman: Yeah. I define good works as anything done in faith. So an act of love done for the glory of God and to meet the needs of other people. That's what good work is. And what is really important to recognize is, I think a lot of us have kind of a reduced notion of good works. We think they are rare and special things like volunteering at a soup kitchen. [00:35:24]
Or when I was growing up, I was in the Boy Scouts for a little bit. And if you make your bed, do this stuff, you get a badge. So you can think of good works as just those things. Or you think of them as extraordinary things, going over to Africa to do missions work as a good work.
All those things are good works. But the biblical conception is the good works are not just rare and special things we do once in a while. Actually, we can be doing good works all day long. Everything we do to meet needs of other people and glorify God is a good work. And that just radically transforms your life.
Our jobs are one of the biggest arenas in which we do good works, because the point of a job is to meet needs, to meet them profitably because you're doing it for a paycheck, but you're meeting needs in order to get that paycheck. [00:36:27] So you see your work as an avenue for helping people, as well as making a living.
And you do the work at your job with that motive, actually wanting to help people and finding ways to do it, to do your work such that it will be maximally helpful to people and not just the minimum to get by and still get your paycheck.
Your work becomes a means of loving your neighbor and it is a good work. So writing emails, creating a meeting agenda, going to that meeting, running the meeting, or just participating in the meeting, even if you feel bored at sometimes, those things are good works. Creating a marketing plan, an engineer designing a bridge, that's a good work. A heart surgeon doing bypass surgery on someone's heart, that is a good work if the surgeon does it for the glory of God and good of that person.
At home, the things you're doing, making dinner for the family, sweeping and vacuuming, which can be constant, getting things organized, all those things are good works because they're meeting the needs of the family. [00:37:29] So this just revolutionizes the Christian life, because we realize all day long is an arena for doing good works and thus for worshiping.
Laura Dugger: I love that, worshiping and being useful. What are your thoughts on stewardship?
Matt Perman: It helps us put things in the right perspective. I see it as God owns us and owns all of our possessions, and we are stewards of ourselves and our possessions, which means we manage them not for our own sakes, ultimately, but for Christ's sake, ultimately. So it ties in nicely to the concept of productivity, where we are also acting for the sake of Christ and not ourselves.
As a steward, it means you want to use your resources in the way that the one you're stewarding for would approve of. So you need to know what He wants, how He wants you to be using your resources. I think He wants you to use them in a gospel-driven way, in ways that reflect generosity and so forth. [00:38:38]
And what's so, I think, really cool is sometimes the concept of stewardship, like there's this concept in leadership, in secular leadership theory, called something like... I forget the exact name, but it's something like stewardship leadership. The meaning there is just maintain the status quo. But that's not what God wants out of our stewardship.
It's not just preserve, make sure you don't lose anything, like the third guy in the parable of the talents, who said, Here you have back what you gave me, but I didn't put it to work because I was afraid I'd lose it, and you'd get mad at me. Well, Jesus rebukes that person for not putting his resource to work, because He wants us to get a return on what He's given us.
And so we need to see that the purpose of our stewardship is to increase the amount of good in the world through the way we manage the resources God has given us, finances, and I would see stewardship as a broader concept of everything, finances, talent, your time. So in many ways, it becomes an overlapping concept with productivity. [00:39:50]
Laura Dugger: And then in light of stewardship, do you have any biblical theology on leisure and television and screen time?
Matt Perman: Well, definitely. I think that's very important. There's this great book by Leland Ryken called Redeeming the Time: A Christian Approach to Work and Leisure. So it's a book on work, but he said, wait, I can't write about work without equally writing about leisure. And that's kind of rare, because there aren't a lot of Christian books on leisure. But I read this years ago, and it was so helpful.
So he made the case, we need to have a theology of work, but we also need to have a theology of leisure. So I developed my theology of leisure largely in alignment with that book. And he was drawing from the Puritans and great Christian thinkers of the past.
One of the key pillars of a good theology of leisure is recognizing that leisure is good, and it's good in itself. It doesn't exist just for the sake of making it possible to do more work. It is good in its own right. [00:40:51] And so what this means is, when you take time for leisure, you don't have to justify it by the fact that it'll help you get more work done. It's just intrinsically good in itself.
Then, of course, there's different forms of leisure. Leisure for the worship of God, there's leisure for time with family and stuff. And then there is a component of recharge. Obviously, that happens. But you don't need to justify leisure by the fact that it will enable you to get back to work at a higher level of concentration and energy.
Then coming into this, something like television. John Piper, who I worked with so long, he always says, Turn off the TV. He doesn't even have a TV. Sometimes I'm just so tired, I just want to watch TV. So I do watch TV sometimes. I think it's acceptable. I think there's a place for that. Ironically, I think studies show TV actually doesn't relax you very much like we think it does. [00:41:54] But I think it's okay. I think there's a place for it. It absolutely can be overdone.
But I look at things like television and screen time as moderation, not to feel guilty about. And there are some cool movies to watch and cool TV series to watch. The Chosen. I've been really enjoying that. I find it to be a meaningful show. And the actor who plays Jesus, I think he does a great job and really embodies grace and love for other people.
So I think we can get a small glimpse of Jesus a little bit from watching The Chosen. I mean, it's very small. I think the Gospels are better than watching any performance of the Gospels or of Jesus. But that's an example of TV redeemed well, where there's just a movie that you like. It's part of fun. And fun is a legitimate thing and a good thing.
But ideally, you want to be doing the type of leisure that can legitimately be called recreation, the meaning there recreation. [00:42:59] So things that genuinely recharge you, not necessarily for more work, but just to recharge you. So relational things.
The ancients felt that conversation was the best use of leisure. And I agree with them. So yes, I see a place for television and screen time. But I think the best use of leisure is conversation and being the type of people that are able to carry on fascinating, meaningful conversations with others. I think that is one of the best things you can do with your leisure time.
Laura Dugger: Amen to that. I love that point. Do you have any recommendations for ways that we can expand our capacity or any examples of really practical application of how you live this out or you've heard other people live this out well?
Matt Perman: Yeah. So to expand our capacity, I think that visualization is a helpful practice. [00:44:04] Just meaning picturing yourself doing things. Nothing new age about it or anything like that. In terms of like a challenging work activity that's coming up or project or anything coming up, it's going to be hard to do. Picturing yourself doing it.
And then a lot of times you identify some quicker ways to do it in advance. And then you go in and like you're already ahead of the game. So thinking ahead and seeing yourself doing things in advance is a really helpful practice.
I'm starting to try to tie in things more like positive self-talk. So talking graciously to ourselves. That can be the concept of self-talk can be taken off in kind of an odd psychological direction. But it doesn't have to be. Martin Lloyd-Jones talked about a lot of times we're just listening to ourselves. We need to preach to ourselves. And we need to talk to ourselves as people who are valuable to God because we are. That's true. So instead of having negative self-talk, "Oh, I'm so bad at this. I'm terrible at this. I'm etc., etc., etc.," positive self-talk. [00:45:23]
Don't talk to yourself the way you wouldn't want someone to talk to you or the way you would never talk to anyone else. Talk to yourself the way you know you should talk to other people because you are also a person.
And then just basic things like... it is helpful to get up early to carve out some time to prepare for the day, get individual tasks done. I have traditionally been a night person. In college, I usually stayed up till two, but I'm kind of transitioning. I've been transitioning probably over the last 10 years or so. Now I really like early mornings. If you're a night person, you can use a couple hours late at night. If you're a morning person, a couple hours early in the morning. But that really is useful. That is very useful. And right now what I'm doing with that time is getting extra reading done.
Laura Dugger: I love it. And then even thinking of your calendar, are there really specific practices that you use? And are you more digital or paper? [00:46:27]
Matt Perman: So digital with my calendar and to-do lists and all of that. I still find... this is one of my most helpful practices for 15 years now, longer probably. An hour a day at the start of your work, whatever your work is, getting up to date on email and just input that has come in. Now that's not the heart of every job. I definitely know that, but it's a component of every job.
Even as a homemaker, there's stuff. I mean, maybe the sink is broke and you're trying to get things set up with a plumber, getting estimates and all of that. You got this paperwork component of just about any type of work in this world. And by paperwork, I mean computer for the most part. And having about an hour of focus time to handle that stuff, the stuff that's changed and happened over the last 24 hours is just really helpful. [00:47:32]
Then for the rest of my day, my job is largely at a computer. I will deal with stuff as it comes up, obviously, and all that. But there's always some stuff where you're like, I can't handle that now. I got to hold off on that. This hour, usually the first hour of work in the morning, that's the time to do all that stuff. So it doesn't keep getting put off. I just find that so helpful. And it's doable. If you think in terms of an hour, it doesn't have to be four hours, just an hour, get as much as you can in that hour.
Laura Dugger: That makes sense to then more so maintain it rather than letting it pile up. Matt, if people want to learn more from you after this conversation, where would you direct all of us to go?
Matt Perman: Anyone can go to whatsbestnext.com. We'd be excited for you to check that out. I have a blog there. I haven't blogged much recently, but that goes back about 15 years on productivity and related stuff. [00:48:35]
I offer coaching, productivity coaching, speaking events, and some other things. So there's lots of great stuff on that website. You can learn more about the book. The book is also called What's Best Next, and you can pick that up at Amazon. But yeah, check out the website, whatsbestnext.com.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will put a link for that in the episode show notes for today. And you may already be aware our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, Matt, what is your savvy sauce?
Matt Perman: I love that name. Here's my savvy sauce. Reading for at least one hour every day. Consistency is the key there. That adds up. It's like putting savings into the bank account every single day, except the savings is knowledge.
Laura Dugger: I love that. That is so well put. [00:49:35] I appreciate all of that knowledge that you have accumulated over time. And the cumulative effect is incredible just to see the overflow that we've all experienced because of your self-discipline in this area. So thank you for sharing all of this with us today, and thank you for being my guest.
Matt Perman: You're welcome. Thanks for having me on The Savvy Sauce.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. [00:50:34] But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:51:34] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:52:36]
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
Related Episodes
