“Since his days are determined, The number of his months is with You; You have appointed his limits, so that he cannot pass.” (‭Job‬ ‭14:5‬ (‭NKJV)

**Transcription Below**

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

What are some of the best reasons to praise God for our limits?
How can limits humbly teach us the value of being interdependent upon one another?
What is your favorite take-away you learned from the process of researching God's good design of our limits and how has it personally changed your life?

Kelly M. Kapic is professor of theological studies at Covenant College in Lookout Mountain, Georgia, where he has taught since 2001. Kelly and his wife Tabitha have two children, Jonathan and Margot.

He has written and edited numerous books, including Embodied Hope: A Theological Meditation on Pain and Suffering (IVP Academic, 2017), which won the Book of the Year Award from Christianity Today in the category of Theology and Ethics.

Kelly Kapic's Website

Other Savvy Sauce Episodes on Sabbath

99 Sabbath Rest with Sandy Feit

175 Practicing Sabbath with Shireen Eldridge

Thank You to Our Sponsors: Solid Rock Christian Academy and Chick-fil-A East Peoria

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

[00:00:18] <music>

Laura Dugger: Our sponsors for today's episode are Solid Rock Christian Academy and Chick-fil-A East Peoria. Check out SolidRockChristianAcademy.org for their alternative schooling option with a solid biblical view. And visit CFAEastPeoria.com for available employment opportunities or to place your catering order.

My guest for today is author, professor, and theologian, Kelly Kapic. Kelly recently authored a book titled, You're Only Human: How Your Limits Reflect God's Design and Why That's Good News. His insights are so well thought out. His recommended changes to the way we approach efficiency have the potential to positively impact your life.

Here's our chat.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Kelly. [00:01:18]

Kelly Kapic: It's so good to be with you. Thanks for having me, Laura.

Laura Dugger: It is truly my pleasure. You had mentioned in your book this interest in limits has intrigued you for more than two decades. So I'd love to know, where did your curiosity originate?

Kelly Kapic: Yeah, thanks for asking. There's both personal and theological reasons for that. Maybe the personal would be the right place to start or even focus for this conversation. And some of it's just... some of your listeners will be able to relate to this.

Whether it's at the end of the day, you know, you finally get a minute and you sit on the couch or you put your head on the pillow at night or maybe first thing in the morning when you wake up, in those situations, I so often had found myself kind of being surprised by levels of guilt and shame coming over me.

As I kind of would explore that, I was surprised at what I found. Because it's one thing... you know, I'm a theologian. I believe in the reality of sin. [00:02:21] We need to be honest about it. And if a sense of guilt or shame comes because I've been cruel to a coworker, I've said unkind things, I've undermined school or whatever it is, then I need to repent and just really enjoy the beauty and grace of Christ.

But actually, often that sense of guilt or shame was related to some version of this. Kelly, why didn't you get more done today? Why didn't you do more? And so feeling like, you know, is that how we're supposed to feel, I really became very interested in exploring, is that right? A different way of saying it is, what does God actually expect of me in a day, in a month, in a year, in a lifetime?

And I really have found this pretty common among Christians and non-Christians of this endless sense of not getting enough done and guilt and shame about that. So I really wanted to explore, how should we think about those things?

Laura Dugger: I'm curious to hear your findings then as well. Could you even just share one takeaway of what God shared with you through this process? What is an answer to that question? [00:03:25]

Kelly Kapic: Yeah. The short answer is God said, Kelly, you're human and you're not God. So chill out. And we all know the right answer to that, right? If I say, hey, do you think you're God, Laura? You're like, of course not, right? But so many of us in our lives and even what we push on to our children, it's these endless expectations to do more, to be more, to know more.

So what does it actually look like to be faithful? And really by slowing down and starting to think through, how does God view me? What does God value? How should we think about this life? With so many external pressures on us, and the church has baptized many of these, we've kind of said, you know what, what really is valuable to God and to life is productivity and efficiency. Do as much as you can and be as efficient as possible.

And I'm really questioning some of that. I love efficiency. I love productivity. But when you take a good thing and you make it the most important thing, it actually can become quite a bad and destructive thing. [00:04:29] So those are some of the ways I would start to think through it.

Laura Dugger: Well, and I'd love for you to now speak to the person who feels far from this message or perhaps they're skeptical of this topic. Kelly, what are some of the best reasons to praise God for our limits?

Kelly Kapic: Well, because, again, He's God and we're not. Part of what happens here is until we start to come to terms with what it means to be human and the goodness of being a human as God originally made us, it distorts everything else until we get back to that. And this is partly why there is, especially in our contemporary culture, kind of a gut reaction against this. And it's this. So if I said, Laura, I was talking to one of your friends and they were really describing you and they said, you know, she's a really dependent person. You know, when we hear the word dependent, you now instantly think, Oh, that person wasn't speaking nicely of me. Right. It's like a negative. [00:05:33]

Part of what I'm interested in exploring is actually biblically what it means to be human is to be dependent. We were made — this is part of the goodness of how God designed us — we were made to be dependent on God, to be dependent on our neighbor, and to be dependent on the earth. And so the very fact that in our culture, the idea of dependence has such an almost exclusively negative connotation attached to it really makes authentic Christian spirituality very difficult.

Now, it is true there are problems like codependency, but that's not what I'm talking about. But we are made to depend on God, others, and the earth. So we are skeptical of these things because we framed not just the American dream, but Christian spirituality in overly individualistic, rugged terms. That undermines our humanity, undermines our community.

But when you can change this and start to see how God intended us as humans to be limited and once you recognize limits, then you recognize the beauty of I need you, I need God, I need the earth. [00:06:42] It starts to open up brand new things. I mean, we could talk about humility if you want it as an example. But this actually is not just God saying, it's okay you're limited. I know it kind of sucks, but it's okay. Like, no, no, no. This is part of the beauty and goodness of his design. It's not part of being a sinner or something.

Laura Dugger: Let's elaborate there, then. How can limits humbly teach us the value of being interdependent then upon one another?

Kelly Kapic: Yeah, that's great. So we all know Christians, even non-Christians know, you know, we should be humble. That seems like a good thing. But if you ask most Christians just kind of offhand, you say, why should we be humble, very often our gut reaction is, well, because we're sinners. And it is true we are sinners and that can contribute rightly to the fact that we should be humble. But if you try and build the idea of humility on the foundation of sin, the fact that we're sinners, it actually distorts the whole thing.

If you think the reason we should be humble is because we're sinners, then often in both explicit and implicit ways, what Christians are often told is, you want to become more humble? Focus on what a bad sinner you are. [00:07:54]

Well, I do think we need to be honest about our sin and our weaknesses. But if you do that, then the path forward is actually by focusing on just how terrible you are, which ironically tends to foster self-absorption just in a negative way and often forms of self-hatred and stuff. But if you build the idea of humility, not on the foundation of sin, but on the foundation of the goodness of God's creation, recognizing even if there were no sin, even if there were no fall, humans were meant to be humble. Right? That's the question.

Adam and Eve before the fall, should they have been humble? The answer is yes. Why? Because even before sin, they were meant to be dependent on God, dependent on others, dependent on the earth. So that humility doesn't just say, I'm sorry, and can you forgive me? Although it does do that. But humility also says, I don't know. Can you help me? Right? Those are creature words.

So part of what I'm trying to explore is this idea that God made us as creatures. [00:08:55] So we use this word finitude, which is a fancy term. We don't use it a lot. Finitude just means limits. Limits in space, time, knowledge, power. And the Christian version of the word finitude or limits is creature.

To be a creature, a good creature, a good human creature, is to recognize our need and dependence on God, others, and the earth, so that humility can be fostered then in a healthy way by learning to delight in other people, to celebrate them, to not view them as threats. So Dietrich Bonhoeffer in the early 20th century says sin isn't what makes us dependent. Sin is what twists the dependencies. It twists the limits so that now I view the other, my neighbor, as a threat that I either need to dominate or ignore. But Christian humility says, no, I can celebrate them. I can receive what they have to give. I can give to them. We're in this together. There's something bigger. So anyway, that's kind of a lot. But they give you a taste of how this is meant to be liberating, not suffocating. [00:09:59]

Laura Dugger: I like that. And I love it. I think it was just one of my favorite parts of the book. It's on page 178, where you are talking about this idea of being dependent upon one another. I am just going to read one of your quotes because it was brand new to me. You wrote, "Today I am caring for prisoners in jail. I'm evangelizing the disenfranchised in Nepal. I am praying over the sick child in the hospital. I'm serving the recovering victims of sex trafficking. I am standing against racial injustice and I am caring for the widows. And I am doing so much more. How? I am doing all of this because I am part of the living body of Christ. God's Spirit has united me to Christ and because of that union, to my sisters and brothers of the faith. We are one. I am part of the church, both local and global." So will you elaborate on that? [00:10:59]

Kelly Kapic: Yeah. Thank you. That's great. One of the examples of how this works out is as Christians, we see all the important work that needs to be done in the world. For example, in Matthew 25, it's red letters. So it's got to be really important, right? But Jesus talks about this in Matthew 25, and he tells that very sobering story about the sheep and the goats. And the thing that separates the sheep and the goats in judgment is, did you care for the naked? Did you clothe the naked? Did you feed the hungry? Did you visit the prisoners? This kind of movement towards the marginalized. What do we do with that?

I remember I had a former student of mine. He's now in ministry in California, and he called me, and he's very thoughtful. And the single guy pours himself out in university ministry, and he said, "I'm just thinking about this text, and it haunts me." He's like, "I do ministry, but I'm single. I don't have very much money. I'm exhausted. Do I need to start signing up for the food shelter? Do I need to visit prisoners? Maybe I'm a goat." [00:12:09]

And when we hear him, someone like that reflect, we're like, "Oh, man, chill out, guy. You're like taking this stuff too seriously." But his problem is not that he's missing it. It's not that we're so much more advanced and spiritual than he is, and he's just overly concerned. It's just we're just not taking Jesus seriously, and he is.

So the question is, what do we do? How does this kind of work? And you can multiply the examples. Without fully getting into this, I can read the chapter on it. The options we have right now, especially in our politicized, polarized day, is either you need to do everything, and everything needs to be activism, or you do nothing, and you call all of it just politics, and let's stay away from it.

But the church has calls. So how do we understand the sheep and the goats? Does that mean I personally need to visit all the prisoners, I personally need to feed all the people? No. But don't take from that that means God doesn't care about caring for the poor, the needy, the hungry, the prisoner. [00:13:15] And that is vital.

So how does it work? Well, it works because if you read the biblical text in a more corporate understanding of the people of God, then it gets transformed. The way I would put it in one sentence is the aha moment is it takes the entire church to be the one body of Christ. It takes the entire church to be one body of Christ.

So we fulfill Matthew 25 not as individuals, but as the corporate church. So if our church really doesn't ever care about the poor and the needy, if there's no one who's doing these things, that's actually a big problem. But that means I can celebrate you in your work that's different than mine because I need you and you need me.

And so my friend ministering to college students is doing what a lot of us can't do. A woman I know who's a lawyer in Chicago is so busy, but she is ministering to those college students through Matt, right, because she is connected to him by the Spirit, and he is benefiting from her faithfulness in other ways. [00:14:21] So there's a lot more you could say on that, but the beauty of our interconnection is actually a positive rather than a negative.

Laura Dugger: It is. This message promotes so much freedom and an invitation for participation. That just brings us back to Jesus and the good news. That is what he calls us to. So I love that.

Kelly Kapic: Yeah. Because I like how you put that. People often worry, if you talk about this, no one's going to do anything. And I question that, at least from my experience, and then, you know, as readers and others talk to me. I think when we don't do anything often is when we look at the needs and the demands and we're crushed by them, right?

So we see a lot of people... I work with college students for a living, and you can get a 20-year-old to run through a brick wall for a big cause, and like, yes, I'm going to change the world, and they're going to do all this, and then at 28, they're going to write you because they're totally burned out, right? [00:15:21]

So the beauty is we get paralyzed when we think we have to do everything, but as you said, if you realize, I don't have to do everything, I just have to do some things that God's called me to, then you actually can participate. And that's the right idea. We don't have to do it all, but we do get to participate. That's beautiful.

Laura Dugger: I'm so excited to tell you about our two sponsors for this episode.

[00:15:46] <music>

Sponsor: Solid Rock Christian Academy in Morton, Illinois, and also Chick-fil-A, located in East Peoria, Illinois. Solid Rock Christian Academy is a brand-new private grade school, and they currently have a kindergarten class for the 2022-23 school year. They are planning to add a grade each year, and they are offering both first grade and kindergarten for fall of 2023.

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[00:16:58] <music>

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[00:18:11] <music>

Laura Dugger: Kelly, what would you say are a few of your conclusions to the question, do I have enough time?

Kelly Kapic: The conclusion has got to be yes. As painful as that is, right? We always think "I don't have enough time. I don't have enough time to pray. I don't have enough time to read my Bible. I don't have enough time to do my work."

One of the messages of the book is when we feel this right now, and this includes in Christian circles, we're all feeling crushed, and the only answer we all give is better time management. I think it's not a time management problem. I think it's a theological and pastoral problem.

Because even the idea of managing time is a bit mythical, right? All of us only have 24 hours in a day. So the question is, what does faithfulness look like? So God gives each of us only so much time. We all have bodies. Those bodies need to be fed. Those bodies need sleep. God is the one who gives you a family, gives you a community. [00:19:15] He's calling you into certain responsibilities. So we shouldn't resent or belittle those.

We have to be realistic about what commitments actually look like. I think rather than trying to get more time, we need to rethink this. What surprised me is... I think the biblical answer is to cultivate the fear of the Lord. And you're like, what are you talking about? I thought we were talking about do you have enough time.

But it's interesting, the fear of the Lord biblically is not primarily about being scared of God, although sometimes that shows up. But the fear of the Lord is really, if you could put it simply, it's cultivating an awareness of God's presence, of His kindness, of His work, and what He's doing. You're living in the fear of the Lord. You recognize Him throughout your days.

One of the things we so struggle with in our day is learning to be present. I would say the beautiful thing is if we can learn to be present with God, we also learn to be present with other people. [00:20:16] That means slowing down a bit. That means being fully present with God, being fully present with others. That changes the equation. So this may not make a lot of sense, and people would have to look more into the chapter.

But I think there is a sense in which we can cultivate the fear of the Lord, which is this awareness of God's presence throughout our days. And that can slow us down and make us reevaluate. Should I do this? Should I not do this? What does faithfulness look like? And that starts to raise certain questions about always valuing efficiency and productivity as our highest goods.

Laura Dugger: Yes. I've got my book right next to me. I've highlighted throughout. So one more quote from page 120 that's on this topic. And this may have been my very favorite in the book. But you say, "When productivity alone reigns, we cultivate idolatry rather than worship, isolation rather than community, and selfishness rather than love. [00:21:16] Could you add or elaborate to that thought?

Kelly Kapic: Thank you. It's so funny because I'm an American. I love efficiency and productivity. But here's the thing. What's the most inefficient thing you can possibly do? It's love, right? Whether it's a newborn child or a puppy, whether it's a spouse or an aging parent or a friendship. Once you love, you're risking. And now, love actually makes demands on us. It takes time, right?

As you know, one of the shocking things to parents when they have a firstborn is they often thought, Oh, we could just keep our life. And now we're adding a kid. My wife, who's really funny, but when our firstborn was born and Jonathan was tiny, I remember people saying, "How's it going?" And she'd say, "It's good, but he's just super needy." And you'd see this horror on people's eyes. And she's joking around like, of course, they're needy, right? He needs her constantly. Otherwise, he'd literally die. [00:22:21] Well, that's not efficient. That's not, you're not getting a lot.

One of the things stay-at-home parents will constantly tell you is so frustrating because of how, quote, unquote, little they're getting done. But if love is God's highest priority, not efficiency and productivity, that equation changes. But that is not an easy message in our day because we have all, whether we know it or not, including me, bought into the narrative, the highest value is productivity and efficiency. And therefore it breeds discontent and an inability to just be present in the season of life God has called you to.

Laura Dugger: You also teach that Jesus does not overburden his flock. And so then what is a better way to live, even if we do feel like we're experiencing time poverty?

Kelly Kapic: I mean, it kind of goes to what we were talking about with the sheep and the goats. That actually we need the whole church to be faithful. [00:23:22] We do have to ask hard questions when we think about our lives and how we're spending our time. You know, it is funny. The great gift of Twitter and Facebook and those kind of things is it kind of ends the idea that none of us have time to pray. Because that was pretty clever. I'm not actually on Facebook or Twitter, but, you know, that idea of we do have time.

Now, I actually think the reason so many of us spend so much time on things like Facebook, Twitter, binging on Netflix, and stuff, rather than blaming those things, I've started to think the amount of time people spend on those is not so much the problem. It's a sign of a deeper problem. And that is we feel crushed by the endless expectations. So those kind of diversions and distractions allow us to just breathe. So they're coping mechanisms that culturally we've kind of...

So rather than blaming those things, I would say, why do we just want to binge Netflix? Why do we just want to crash? [00:24:25] Well, part of it's because of these unrealistic expectations. So Jesus doesn't have unrealistic expectations for you. He knows exactly who you are. He knows the seasons of life that you're in. And if you have newborns, it's very different than if you're an empty nester.

If you're single and you have this kind of income, that's different than if you're 42 and you're... No one knows us better than Jesus. And He is not up there constantly frustrated. Part of what He's saying is, what does faithfulness look like? And I think that's a better question rather than, did I get enough done? All of that.

But it does bring up these deeper questions of how does God actually view you? What does God think of you? What does God expect? I guess I would just add to this one other thing that's related is how does God view us?

One of the things that I've really tried exploring the book is, I think we've misunderstood the way God views. So if you ask a Christian, does God love you? We are all like, yes, of course, God loves us. He's God. He has to love us. [00:25:28]

But if you change the question... I have college students in my office sometimes who are really struggling and I'll say, do you think your parents love you? And they'll say, of course, they're my parents. But if I ask them, do you think your parents like you? It's amazing how often tears will come to their eyes. They're sure that their parents love them, but it's kind of like a requirement because they're their parents. But they're not actually sure their parents like them.

I actually think the same thing with God. We think, God's God, He has to love us, but He certainly doesn't like us. And that's worth wrestling with. Because who is it that made you with your particularity, right? God doesn't love our sin. But the reason why He wants to deal with our sin is because He actually wants to liberate us to be the particular human creatures He's called us to and loves. He actually likes what He made. He doesn't like the sin that distorts it.

So anyways, now I'm meandering a bit, but all of those things are actually related to growing comfortable, being a good human creature in the midst of a full world, and recognizing I don't have to be God. [00:26:36] I need to love God, neighbor, and earth. I don't need to do everything.

Laura Dugger: That's really helpful then, even playing that out with the practicality of time. But let's also talk about stress. What are your thoughts on stress as you've studied it, even biblically?

Kelly Kapic: There's a chapter where I kind of distinguish stress and anxiety. People use these words in different ways, and there are some technical ways to even use the word anxiety. But for our purposes, I would just say, I do think there's a distinction there worth keeping, because we often tell people how stressed out we are.

But when you think about it, stress itself is not intrinsically or inherently bad, right? If you hear a lion roar, you could feel some stress. That stress is kind of what will get the adrenaline going. You might be able to climb the tree faster. If you have a due date of something and you feel some stress, that actually surprisingly can help you rally to get things done, etc. [00:27:41] Stress is not bad.

Even scientifically when people talk about our bone structure and that kind of thing, there's a certain amount of stress or tension the body needs to develop and maintain muscle and strong bones and that kind of thing. But all that to say, stress doesn't have to be inherently bad. But the problem with stress is when you move from episodic, occasional, helpful things to a lifestyle.

So this is why when our bodies are on full alert all the time, it's one thing if you go, Oh, I'm in midterms. I need to push really hard. I feel that stress. It's another thing to live all of your life, not getting sleep, working too hard, and all that. So I think that is where we end up with a problem. And our bodies can feel it, right?

As many of your listeners will know, Van der Kolk's famous book, The Body Keeps the Score, by the psychologist. And basically, your body, at some point, it stores trauma, it stores these things. And at some point, your body says, That's enough. So I would want to distinguish that. [00:28:52]

And then anxiety, when it says, do not be anxious, we want to be careful because of that word, how it gets used. But I don't think God is saying be naive. I don't think he's saying just upward and onward, be happy all the time.

But there is this sense of we shouldn't have to live constantly anxious about the next moment and about life. So if we find ourselves living in a state of perpetual stress, with high levels of anxiety, we should be asking some pretty fundamental questions about, have we misunderstood the life God has called us to? And then what decisions can we make to try and change this situation?

Laura Dugger: I love your paradigm shift, where you just teach that stress is a good gift from God, but it's a terrible master.

Kelly Kapic: Yeah, that's right.

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What has God taught you about process?

Kelly Kapic: It's amazing that something like process is related to the whole conversation of our finitude and limits. For example... This relates to my concern about the doctrine of creation. If you ask Christians, they're like... I just think evangelicals and many Christians the last 150 years have a very underdeveloped doctrine of creation. [00:31:01] And people say, no, we talk about it all the time. But when we talk about it, we only tend to talk about when did God create the earth and how did He do it, right? And those can be legitimate conversations. But when it gets reduced to that, it distorts everything.

So go back to the creation narrative, because this relates to process. Here's the question. Could God have made everything instantaneously, like in a millisecond or faster? And we would all say, yes, of course. So it doesn't matter if you think the earth is, I don't know, 10,000 years old or if you think the earth is 10 billion years old, as radically different as those are.

What's interesting, no matter where you're at on that spectrum, everybody has to admit that God who could have made it instantaneously doesn't. He takes days, whatever that means, right? And after each day, he says, oh, that's good. That's good. This God likes to build. He takes time.

As Genesis 1:2 talks about the spirit hovering over the Tohu va-Vohu, over this chaotic waters, and He's bringing about order. [00:32:01] So all that to say that God, even before their sin, God has always been comfortable taking His time. He's comfortable with process.

And part of what we need to see is the God of creation is the same as the God of recreation or the God of sanctification, the God of redemption. It's not a different God. So God is comfortable working in our lives.

So you and I, we're like, I'm so grateful I'm forgiven of my sins. But then it's like day after day, we're wrestling with sin. And you think, well, am I forced to just think God is perpetually disappointed? Like, "I can't believe you sinned again. I forgave you, but I can't just keep doing this? Why aren't you growing? Why aren't you developing?"

But if you think, no, no, God, God's comfortable with process. He delights in process so that He doesn't want you just soaked in sin. The example I would give, maybe this would help, is say Margo, when my daughter was learning to walk and she was little, like everybody's seen children learn to walk. And I'd set up Margo and have her put her hand on the couch.[00:33:05] I'd back up about eight feet. I'd say, "Margo, come to me. Come on, come on, sweetie." And she nervously, but eventually moves her hand from the couch and starts to walk to me. And you know, what's going to happen? She hits the ground, right? And so I yell at her and say, "Margo, I told you to walk." Of course, I didn't do that, right? She's my daughter. I went over and I said, "Oh, Margo, it's okay. Good job. That's great." And kissed her wherever there might be a bruise. And I said...

And we all know I did that because I love my daughter. And yet we think God is like a bad father. That when we fall, He's like, "I can't believe you. I told you not to sin." No, no, no. He's a Father who comes over and lovingly picks us up. It's not that when I'm doing that with Margo, I think Margo walking... I don't care if you learn to walk or not. No, no, no. I knew she needed to walk, but I also knew it would take time. She needed muscle development. She needed balance. I knew her situation and it would be a process. [00:34:04]

God knows our situation better than we do. And He who began a good work is committed to seeing it through, even though it's going to take way longer than we think. So, anyways, those are some of the thoughts on process.

Laura Dugger: Well, that's good. And even some truths from the Old Testament, but you also draw in your book from New Testament that even Jesus grew. And we can learn so much through that.

Kelly Kapic: Yeah. I mean, there's shocking verses. Luke 2:32. He grows in wisdom, in stature, and in this way that God talks about this kind of growth. How do we think about that? How comfortable are we with a baby Jesus, with a teenager Jesus, all of that?

And people say, but the Bible doesn't talk about that. It doesn't talk about Him as an 8-year-old or Him going through puberty or Him... Actually, that's beautiful. The fact that the Bible doesn't talk about it tells you how normal it was. Because what the Bible tells you is what is surprising and unexpected. [00:35:03] So it doesn't tell you Jesus went and used the restroom. It doesn't tell you Jesus laughs heartily at His friend's joke. He didn't have to tell you that because it all happened just like it happens for everybody. Right? It tells you the surprise: being born of a virgin. It tells you these kind of things. But the fullness of his humanity, including His growth in those kind of... He's not growing and becoming more divine. These are deep Christological theological questions.

But for our purposes, yeah, He really does grow. And that doesn't ever mean it's not growing from being a sinner to not a sinner. He never was a sinner. And yet he experienced growth.

Laura Dugger: And I love that. It makes me think of parenting. So Jesus grew in wisdom and stature and favor with God and man. So the physical part and intellectual and spiritual development and the EQ changing.

Kelly Kapic: Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. That's good.

Laura Dugger: So then also in light of parenting, there was a section of your book that I thought was particularly thought-provoking, specifically, when you unpack the question, is God efficient? [00:36:11] Will you elaborate on that, especially in light of parenting?

Kelly Kapic: Yeah. I mean, it kind of when we're talking about efficiency and productivity and even process. Given the fact that God could have made the world instantaneously and doesn't, there's a sense in which that's not as efficient as it could have been. God could have made the world just gray, different shades of... You know, there's plenty of people listening to this podcast, I don't mean this derogatory, but there's plenty of people listening to this podcast if you walk into our houses, every wall is white. And the reason is it's very efficient.

Then if there's a scratch or whatever, you got one bucket of paint, it can go anywhere. It's real simple. So why didn't God just make everything white? The extravagance of a peacock's feathers, the depth of people's voices, the differences in the variety, all of the color, in a sense, it's kind of like, come on, God, did you really have to do that?

And I think actually all of those things show efficiency is not God's highest value. [00:37:13] He loves beauty. He loves to lift the gaze. He loves to provoke the song. He loves to slow us down. He loves the way connections get made.

So there's all these signs that God has always been comfortable with process, with diversity, those kind of things in terms of beauty. God loves efficiency and God can make a dead person instantly alive. He can instantly turn water into wine. It's not that God is against efficiency, but His highest value is an efficiency. It's love. And that does change things. And if we could live more like that, I think it would be very liberating and it would cultivate community and health and wholeness and the beauty of the gospel in ways that we desperately need in our day that's so inhumane.

Laura Dugger: Wow. Well said. For anyone who resonates most with practical life application, how can we then apply these principles?

Kelly Kapic: Yeah, that's great. [00:38:14] As you know, the last chapter, which is by far the longest, really does try and give you various practices. One is cultivating the idea of vulnerability, which might surprise people. That would be worth looking at.

Another is this idea of cultivating both lament and gratitude. And both lament and gratitude because both of them help us... lament is crying out to God with why or how long O Lord, those kind of honest questions you find throughout the Psalms and throughout the scriptures. You think, how is that related?

Well, lament and gratitude are two sides of the same coin. Both of them are an honest recognition of our dependence on God and that we can't control everything and that we're not in charge. So when painful things happen, we cry out to God in our dependency, God, why? Where were you? What is it happening? And that's actually a good, healthy sign of spirituality.

But similarly, we cultivate gratitude. [00:39:15] We cultivate this sense of look at how God showed up, look at how He provided, look at this beautiful gift of a relationship I didn't expect. And it's really about having eyes to see and ears to hear. Anyways, that's some practices that we talk about.

Actually, it was really fun to write in that chapter a section on a theology of sleep. How sleep is is a matter of faith. If you're in a war zone, soldiers can't sleep because they're worried someone's going to shoot their back. Unless you have someone to guard your back.

Well, it's very interesting. Christians have a theology of sleep. We can sleep because, as the Bible says again and again, God never does. That's the beauty. And when we're pushing ourselves and thinking, no, I always need to do more, I can't rest, it's a sign, we actually think the world depends upon us and God is absent.

Sabbath. This doesn't have to be about legalism, but just this beautiful way in which God made us in this one-in-seven rhythm of taking a day of genuine rest, of worship, of connecting with people, of reconnecting with our humanity and with the earth. [00:40:25] I actually in the book gives some ideas of different practices that I think we can implement in our lives that will give us a healthier view of our humanity and what it means to be a creature and to be finite.

Laura Dugger: I love it. We've previously done a few episodes specifically on Sabbath. I love that topic.

Kelly Kapic: Oh, good.

Laura Dugger: I'll definitely link to those in the show notes. But then I'd also love to know, Kelly, through these decades of curiosity and putting everything together in this book, do you have a favorite takeaway that you've learned from this process? Then how has it personally changed your life?

Kelly Kapic: For me, a lot has been really leaning into this idea of healthy dependence, of humility, and learning to genuinely not lie to other people, not manipulate people, but genuinely learn to celebrate other people's gifts, what they bring. The fact is we are dependent. [00:41:26] And the fact that we ignore it hurts us in those relationships.

It's one of those beautiful things when parents... when a child gets old enough and they start to say, thank you, mom, thank you, dad. And it's one of those signs of immaturity and a problem when the kids never recognize and express gratitude. But that's in all kinds of things. Thanking the people at the grocery store, thanking your colleagues, thanking... We are dependent on people all the time, but we don't recognize it, so we don't think of it that way.

Anyways, just kind of being more holistic, being more grounded, being able to really delight in other people and recognize and see them. To be seen is a big deal. I want to be seen. I know other people want to be seen. We don't put it that way. But it's amazing how transformative that can be.

Laura Dugger: And if this really struck a chord with someone, where would you direct us all to learn more from you after today's conversation?

Kelly Kapic: Oh, thanks. [00:42:26] On this particular topic, the book, You're Only Human, which is an exploration of this kind of thinking through what does it mean? So the book is You're Only Human: How Your Limits Reflect God's Design and Why That's Good News. But I'm actually not on social media. So sadly.

Covenant College, where I teach, has a page for me. So that's where people can click in when they ask me to come speak and that kind of thing. But I'm not out there. For your readers, to be honest, I would encourage them to consider reading You're Only Human or the book Embodied Hope, which is a slow reflection on pain and suffering. Those might be the two that would most resonate with your audience.

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. Thank you for that direction.

Kelly Kapic: Yeah, you've got it.

Laura Dugger: And you may be familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce.

Kelly Kapic: I love that name. It's hilarious.

Laura Dugger: Well, and "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. So, Kelly, as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce? [00:43:24]

Kelly Kapic: I think, honestly, my answer is probably quiet, learning to be silent and learning to pray in a slower way. I'm a Presbyterian. Is there really a Holy Spirit that's still acting? And the surprise is, yes, there is. And to be present and quiet with God rather than just filling that time up with God with words always, for me has been transformative and really helpful. And God bring people to mind that you want me to pray for and bring things to mind that you want to change in me. And not constantly filling up immediately with words and seeing what God does has been an example of His grace in my life. That's been really helpful. So maybe that might help some of your listeners.

Laura Dugger: Well, Kelly, you are very kind and thoughtful, both in your responses to these questions today, but even in the words that you've published in your book and our email correspondences as we were scheduling this interview. [00:44:28] So thank you for bringing this message forward for all of us to benefit from and thank you for being my guest.

Kelly Kapic: Oh, it's been great, Laura. Thanks so much. I hope this podcast and your other work continues to flourish. This is great.

Laura Dugger: Thank you.

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:45:29]

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:46:33]

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:47:34]

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce

Practical chats for intentional living

A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.

They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!