203. Heaven Bound with Robert Wolgemuth

Apr 10

"Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds." John 12:24 (NIV)

**Transcription Below**

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

Why is this Scripture is especially meaningful to you: "Unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds." John 12:24b
What have you learned about Heaven through your own loss of your late wife?
In your unique line of work, will you share specific stories of interesting people you have encountered and lessons learned from them?

Robert Wolgemuth has been in the media business for thirty-nine years. A former president of Thomas Nelson Publishers, he is the founder of Wolgemuth & Associates, a literary agency exclusively representing the writing work of more than one hundred authors.

Robert is a speaker and best-selling author of over twenty books. His books include, She Calls Me Daddy, the notes to the Dad’s Devotional Bible, The Most Important Place on Earth, She Still Calls Me Daddy, and What’s in the Bible: The Story of God through Time and Eternity, co- written with R.C. Sproul. His other collaborative works include Men of the Bible and The Most Important Year in a Man’s Life.

Robert is known as a champion for the family, effective communication, leadership, listening skills, relationship building, and biblical truth. Among his professional accomplishments, he has served two terms as the Chairman of the Evangelical Christian Publishers Association. A 1969 graduate of Taylor University, from where he received an honorary doctorate in May 2005, Dr. Wolgemuth has two grown daughters, two sons-in-law, and five grandchildren. Robert is married to Nancy DeMoss Wolgemuth, who is the host of the daily radio/podcast, “Revive Our Hearts.” She is also an accomplished author and speaker. Nancy and Robert live in Michigan.

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

[00:00:18] <music>

Laura Dugger: Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing non-profit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.

Robert Wolgemuth is my guest today, and this is a conversation we all need to hear. We get to talk about heaven and loss and his latest book, Finish Line. Robert is a wonderful storyteller, and this conversation will linger in your mind long after it ends. I hope that you are richly blessed by spending your time with me, as now we get to hear Robert's story.

Here's our chat.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Robert.

Robert Wolgemuth: Thank you, Laura. It's an honor to be with you.

Laura Dugger: Well, I'd love to start with just getting a little bit of context. [00:01:18] So, will you take us back to when you surrendered your life to Jesus?

Robert Wolgemuth: Yes, I would be happy to. You know, you hear stories about praying at your mother's knee. That's exactly what happened to me. My mother and dad, three siblings at the time, lived in South Central Pennsylvania. And my daddy was the pastor of a church. And we went to a movie. Now, that's a crazy thing because we didn't go to movies.

My first movie I was a senior in high school. But we went to a movie, it was like in the community center, and it was a movie called Mr. Texas. And it was the story of a singer-songwriter named Red Harper. And it was his story of coming to faith in Christ. And so, when the movie was over, I was on the back row... I mean, this is what you read about, right? I was in the back row, and I said to my mother, my precious mother, "I would like to receive Jesus as my Savior." So, I knelt, literally, in the dark, in the back of the auditorium, and prayed to receive Christ. [00:02:22]

A really fun side note. Erwin Lutzer, who was for years the pastor of Moody Church in downtown Chicago, and I were sharing stories of our conversions, and he said, "I know this sounds crazy." He said, "Well, I was a little boy, and I went to see a movie called Mr. Texas." And I said, are you serious? So, the very same story Dr. Erwin Lutzer and me have in coming to faith in Christ because of a movie, which is amazing, actually.

So, I had the privilege of growing up in a Christian home, and I'm so thankful for that. My parents loved each other, and they loved us, and they had a vision for missions around the world. And so, we spent a couple years on the mission field. So, I'm very grateful. But because of my family, I was able to be exposed to the gospel. And that's how it started.

Laura Dugger: Wow, that is incredible. You also have a fascinating career. Will you tell us more about the work you get to do? [00:03:22]

Robert Wolgemuth: Fascinating career. You mean I've not been able to hold down a job, so I've got a great resume? Is that what you're saying?

Well, right out of college, I spent five years actually working for Youth for Christ, the ministry called Youth for Christ, with high school students. I gained an amazing appreciation for people who are in youth work, especially lifetime youth work. If you can be successful in youth work, you can do anything.

And so I had six years of that and the joy of leading young people to Christ. Then at the end of that six years, I was invited to join Youth for Christ in the magazine division, publishing a magazine called Campus Life Magazine. That was my first exposure to the publishing world. I got to work alongside people like Tim Stafford and Philip Yancey. I mean, what a joy. And those guys continue to be close friends 60 years later. [00:04:23]

So, that was my introduction to the publishing business. And then, after a few years of that, I was invited to come to Waco, Texas, and join Word Publishing. That was book publishing, but first it was magazine publishing. So, this was book publishing. And so, I haven't left that industry. That was my introduction to it and I'm still doing the same thing. I mean, not the same thing, but still in the same industry.

In fact, I tell young people sometimes when I'm invited to speak at graduate schools or colleges, if you can find an industry that you love, stay there. Because I have 60 years of friendships with people in this industry. And it's amazing. I'm so grateful for that.

Lots of younger people skip from one industry to the other, one job to the other. But if you find one that you like, and you feel like you could spend your lifetime doing that, stay there. [00:05:24]

So, I went from Waco, Texas, to Nashville, Tennessee. I was the president of Thomas Nelson Communications, which was the non-Bible publishing at Thomas Nelson. And eventually, with a colleague named Michael Hyatt, started an agency, a literary agency, representing authors.

So, I bought him out in 98 and spent the rest of my career so far representing authors as an agent. So, I've had the privilege of speaking into the lives of people whose names you would know, and receiving from them wisdom and understanding and friendship. So, it's been a thrill.

Laura Dugger: I can imagine that it is. Are there any specific stories that come to mind of those friends that you've encountered, or even specific lessons that you've learned from soaking in all that wisdom?

Robert Wolgemuth: Well, yeah, there is a story. I don't know if you follow country music. [00:06:25] So, my late wife, Bobbie, and I lived in Nashville for 17 years. And if you're not a country music fan when you go there, you're exposed to it whether you want to or not.

So, I taught a large Sunday school class at First Presbyterian Church in Nashville. And one day, one of my friends came up to me and said, "Did you know that Denise Jackson is in our Sunday school class? I said, "Okay, who's Denise Jackson?" And she said, "Well, she's the wife of Alan Jackson." And I said... You know what I'm going to say, don't you? I said, "Who's Alan Jackson?" There are people right now listening, Laura, who've just hit the end key. They don't want to listen to somebody who doesn't know who Alan Jackson is. So, with apologies, I was pretty new in Nashville, and I had no exposure to country music.

Well, long story short, and a wonderful story, really, a couple weeks later, Denise approached my late wife, Bobbie, and introduced herself. [00:07:28] Of course, my wife said the same thing I said. Denise said, "My name is Denise Jackson." And Bobbie said, "Oh, that's wonderful. Do I know you?" "Well, I'm the wife of Alan Jackson." "Well, that's great. Who's Alan Jackson?"

Well, the truth is that that was during the time that they were separated. So, long conversations ensued, including Denise saying to Bobbie, "I would love for you to pray for my husband to come back." They were separated. And Bobbie said, "Oh, I have a much bigger prayer than that. My prayer for you, Denise, would be that you become the woman God created you to be." I mean, that was it.

Well, to fast forward, eventually, Alan and Denise decided to reconcile, and they asked me to actually do the service where they renewed their vows. Really incredible thing. And then because I'm an agent and I'm in the publishing business, Denise said, "I'd love to write a book to tell this story." [00:08:34] And so she wrote a book called It's All About Him, with a picture of Alan and Denise on the cover. The "Him" in All About Him was Jesus. But when you look at the book, you think, she's writing a book about her husband.

In a week, that book was number one New York Times bestseller. Which, if you know the industry, you know that that's it. That's winning the Super Bowl, right? So the book did incredibly well. We paired her with a wonderful writer, Alan Vaughan.

There are other stories. That's one of my happy stories, really happy stories, about the industry, about being involved in book publishing as an agent. And then I also had a publishing company with a guy named Michael Hyatt, who some of your listeners will know.

So there are lots of stories. We could spend a week just telling fun stories about God's kindness and how He's led my path, an unexpected path. I didn't have any idea what a literary agent did. [00:09:36] And now I've spent 20-some years doing that.

So it's been a joy. It's an opportunity to take the message of people who know the Lord, who have been gifted as teachers, writers, people who know the gospel, know the Bible, and take their word, take their message to a broader audience. That's been a joy to do. That's how I've spent my career.

Laura Dugger: Thank you for letting us in on that. That is really interesting to hear the whole story. Your life has taken quite a few unexpected turns. I'd love for you to elaborate on why this scripture is especially meaningful to you from John 12:24, that says, "...unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds."

Robert Wolgemuth: I love that text because... I've just written a book called Finish Line. [00:10:39] The subtitle is Dispelling Fear, Finding Peace, and Preparing for the End of Your Life. I tell the story in that book of the death of my late wife, Bobbie, in 2014.

And there are lots of twists and turns about the story that I tell in the book. Probably the most interesting one to your audience would be that Bobbie knew a lady named Nancy Lee DeMoss because I was Nancy's agent. I helped her with her publishing work. And Bobbie and Nancy became friends.

Nancy was single, 57 years old, never married. And before she died, Bobbie thought it would be cool if after she dies I would marry Nancy. So she told two friends that she hoped that Robert would marry Nancy Lee DeMoss. But she never told me that.

So several months after Bobbie was gone, I reached out to Nancy because I had been her agent. [00:11:42] And now I'm single, and she's always been single. And that turned into a romance, and we got married in the fall of 2015.

You tell people that story, and it's really a God story. How could you ever patch that together? How could you ever make that happen on your own? You couldn't. It's got to be the leading of the Lord.

Actually, we wrote a book, Nancy and I did several years ago, called You Can Trust God to Write Your Story. We include in that book our story of God's kindness in bringing us to each other. And there are other, like twists and turns.

So Bobbie died in October of 2014. And we showed a video at the end of her service. I actually shot the video from the balcony of my home. In fact, you can get it if you look at Bobbie Wolgemuth, Trust and Obey. It'll pop up on your computer. She's singing the old hymn When we walk with the Lord in the light of his word. [00:12:50]

And at the end of the video, this is at the end of her funeral, the screen went black, and the words appeared in white, that you just read from John 12:24. Which represented to the folks who were there, and the people who live-streamed this funeral, that Bobbie had died and it was a kernel of wheat that had fallen to the ground and the harvest... and I could tell stories after stories of God's kindness in turning that seed in the ground into a wonderful harvest. So that's our story.

I'm incredibly grateful that the Lord gave me almost 45 years, 44 and a half years with Bobbie. And then the Lord had in mind for me to marry another amazing lady. So the kernel of wheat... in fact it's interesting, Jesus said those words. And it was right before His own crucifixion and burial and resurrection. [00:14:00]

So He was referring to Himself. And just imagine the harvest we could talk about, the millions around the world, throughout history, who have been redeemed by the blood of this man. So His kernel of wheat fell into the ground and died and the harvest that it produced, we could talk about, again, for a long, long time — how faithful God has been in redeeming the story of His Son. And that can be our story when we die. Our kernel of wheat can produce many seeds, a great harvest.

Laura Dugger: And you do lay that out so beautifully in the book about Jesus, and the greater picture of what this points to. But I was so grateful also that you let us in on some really sacred moments and walked us through what that was like to lose Bobbie. And even in her final moments, just the incredible way God was near to you.

Robert Wolgemuth: Yeah, it is an amazing story. [00:15:02] Honestly, I feel like a spectator to my own story. I mean, it's amazing. The Lord gave me an opportunity to actually live all that I have been able to experience.

But Bobbie was diagnosed with stage four ovarian cancer on Valentine's Day of 2012. And she was a warrior. She never complained. When I tell people that, they say, "Come on." She didn't. And I was her primary caregiver for 30 months.

So on Monday, August 27th, 2014, my daughters... I have a daughter... Missy, who was born in 71. Julie was born in '74. And they came to my home in Orlando, our home in Orlando, because we knew that Bobbie didn't have much time. So they came on a Monday and we spent the day together. And then I asked permission to lie down for a while because I really hadn't slept for weeks. [00:16:05] And so that's what I did.

But I was down maybe for an hour and a half, and Missy came and woke me up, and she said, "Mother's calling for you." So during that time, that hour and a half, Bobbie was telling the girls, her daughters, what she was seeing. Twinkly lights, children singing. Again, you hear about this, but this really happened to us, to our family.

So anyway, Missy came and woke me up. So we spent the rest of the night just awake, sitting in the living room. Bobbie had a hospital bed there. So the morning, when the sun came up, it was about 8:30 that morning, and we read our Bibles together. And I was holding the Bible that Bobbie had most recently used. She read coast to coast in the Bible, I think, 35 times. And this was one of those. It was a one-year Bible. [00:17:06]And she always underlined and made notes in the margins and so forth.

So we were reading a passage and Bobbie stopped me and she said, "I put a note in the margin there, didn't I?" I said, "Yes, you did." And I read her what that note said. So she was very much awake, alert, alive. At about 10.20, our hospice nurse came to the house. We had hospice twice a week for about 20 minutes. So I did most of the caregiving, which was my privilege.

So she came to the house about 10.20, and she walked into the living room. Bobbie was on the hospital bed in our living room. She greeted her. Her name was Enid, E-N-I-D. She was a lovely Hispanic lady. So Bobbie greeted her, and she greeted Bobbie, and Enid reached over and hugged Bobbie in the bed.

Enid went about her routine, and she took Bobbie's blood pressure. [00:18:07] And she reported what it was, and Bobbie said, "That's really low, isn't it, Enid?" And Enid said, "Yes, Miss Bobbie, that's very low." And so Enid took Bobbie's wrist to take her pulse, and she put her fingers on Bobbie's wrist and held it for a while and then moved her fingers and then tried her other arm. And Bobbie said, "You can't find a pulse, can you?" Enid said, "No, Miss Bobbie, I can't find a pulse." Which is amazing, isn't it? Because Bobbie was so alert. She was so alive.

So she asked me to lower the bed so she would be laying flat. She had been kind of sitting up. So I did that, and I'm sitting right next to her in a chair. And she reached over to me, and she took my shirt in her hands, and she pulled my face in right next to hers and she said, "I love you so much." And she died. So she was alert, I mean, to the very last moment. Isn't that amazing? [00:19:08]

Actually, Missy and Julie, my daughter, said, "Is she dying?" And Enid put her hand on Bobbie's chest, and she said, "She's not breathing. Yes, she's gone."

You know, I'm telling this story not because I read it somewhere. We experienced this. We lived this. And it was so much like Bobbie. I mean, she loved the Lord. She couldn't wait to go to heaven. In fact, the night before when I was resting, she said to the girls, "I'm going to be in heaven tomorrow." So she knew. That's our story. Safe to say that that's a memory that will never leave us. It's a happy memory.

You know, somebody said, we're not moving from the land of the living to the land of the dying. We're living in the land of the dying, and we're moving to the land of the living, which is the reverse of what we normally think about. So that's our story. [00:20:08] And I tell that story in detail in the book Finish Line, which I'm so thrilled to be able to tell.

Laura Dugger: Well, goodness, Robert, I was, I mean, crying instantly as I was reading your story through the book the first time and then hearing you explain it. It's so beautiful and precious. So thank you for letting us in on that.

My husband, Mark, and I recently lost one of our favorite friends, Heather. And anytime we lose someone dear, I think it reminds us how deeply we do long for heaven. So what have you learned about heaven through this loss of your late wife, Bobbie?

Robert Wolgemuth: Well, it's the land of the living. So those who know Christ are living with Jesus. They're more alive than they've ever been. D.L. Moody said, "When you read the story that D.L. Moody is dead, don't believe it for a second. [00:21:13] He's more alive than he's ever been."

So when you get that truth into your heart, it transforms the way you feel about death. In fact, I say in the book that watching Bobbie valiantly face her own death and not complain, eliminated... I know that sounds outrageous, but eliminated my own fear of death. I mean, if I could do that through this book, because, you know, when people are surveyed, what's your greatest fear, very quickly, people say death.

The other is public speaking. But, you know, people are afraid of dying. In fact, I think, if I can be so bold as to say, one of the ironies of the worldwide pandemic was the exposure of people's fear of their own death. I think that had a lot to do with all the hoops and hurdles that we were forced to jump through and jump over. [00:22:18] And I'm not saying that you should be careless. That's silly. Of course not. But if you're not afraid to die, that changes everything. That changes everything.

Now, how I die, I don't... I say in the book, women don't have this. But famous last words for men sometimes are, Hey, you guys, watch this. In fact, I talk about famous last words in the book. It's interesting, Laura, that 30% of us will die instantly. It's like when you go to sleep at night, you're awake, you're lying there, you close your eyes and you wake up the next morning. I mean, you were sleeping for eight hours. 30% of us will die like that.

Nancy's daddy was 53 years old and died on the tennis court. He was getting ready to serve the ball and the next thing he knew he was in heaven. 30%, approximately, of us will die suddenly like that. [00:23:21] That means 70% of us will have an exit ramp. It may be like Bobbie, 30 months. It may be a couple of weeks. It may be years. But it's an interesting thing. I need to be ready for the 30%.

You know, if you're part of the 70%, then you have a chance to get things squared away, your relationship with the Lord, your relationship with your family and so forth. That's the 70%. But if you're in the 30%, you're going to have to keep stuff buttoned up all the time because you never know.

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.

[00:24:01] <music>

Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need.

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Donations, volunteers and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank. To learn more, visit MidwestFoodBank.org or listen to Episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser, shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. I hope you check them out today.

[00:25:30] <music>

Laura Dugger: Well, your book, Robert, Finish Line, reminds me also of this quote I just heard from C.S. Lewis, where he says, "Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in. Aim at earth and you get neither."

Robert Wolgemuth: Wow, that is so good, Laura. Yeah. Don't you love Lewis? Won't it be fun to have coffee with him?

Laura Dugger: Oh, is that the truth?

Robert Wolgemuth: Yeah. So I love that. And it's true. That changes the model. That changes the paradigm of what we're accustomed to when we think about our own death.

Laura Dugger: Well, and you let us in on a little bit of your love story with Nancy. But do you want to share anything more to catch us up with where you are in this phase of life?

Robert Wolgemuth: Sure. Sure. So, Bobbie's funeral was live streamed. I knew Nancy because I was her literary agent for a number of years. So we knew each other professionally. And she knew and loved Bobbie. Both of them used, for some of their internet stuff, the password HIMLADY, HIMLADY, because they both loved Him. [00:26:35]

So Nancy watched Bobbie's funeral in October of 2014, and she sent me an email and she said that she had watched it and it was amazing. And it was. And she said, "Would it be okay with you if I would share some of that audio on Revive Our Hearts? And I said, "Well, of course." And she said, "I especially would love to play the tribute that Missy and Julie," my daughters, "gave to their mom." And I said, "Yes, of course."

Actually, isn't the internet incredible? Because if you'd like to, you can Google "Bobbie Wolgamuth Daughters". Their 20 minute tribute to their mother will appear magically. So Nancy was taken by that. And it is amazing. I don't know I've ever seen a standing ovation at a funeral, but that's what they got. [00:27:35]

So I began to interact with Nancy regarding, isn't it ironic, my late wife's funeral service. So that would have been in December of '14. I have known Nancy's brother, Mark, for many years. So providentially, we were having lunch in December. So just a couple of months after the funeral and a couple of months after I had spoken with Nancy or communicated with Nancy. So I said to Mark... actually, I was nervous. I felt like a sophomore in high school. I was so nervous to ask the following question. I said, "Mark, tell me about Nancy." I'm a single man. She's a single woman. She's 57. I'm 67. That's a sweet story about that, too.

So he said, "Well, my wife, April, and I have talked about this for many years, and we're pretty sure that Nancy has been called to be a single woman in ministry." [00:28:39] But if you'd like me to tell her that you asked about her, I'd be happy to do that. So the next morning, Mark texted me and said, "April, I talked about this, and if you'd like to reach out to Nancy, we think that would be fine."

So a couple days later, I gathered the courage and I sent Nancy an email. Laura, she responded immediately. I thought, "This is very cool." Well, the email said, "Thank you so much for sending me this email. One of my assistants will be happy to respond to you." So it was an auto reply. Thanks a lot.

Well, that would have been in December. Maybe a week later, I did get a response. And she filled me in a little bit on her travel. She was in Arkansas visiting the state women's penitentiary there. Nancy's had an amazing ministry all these years. [00:29:40] That was in December 2014. And in November of 2015, she was my wife.

Now, you know, it's interesting because some people look at that and say, "That is really fast." I mean, "Isn't that kind of dishonoring of your late wife?" My response to that is, "No, I had 30 months of an exit ramp. This was not sudden." So Bobbie and I talked a lot about her death because we knew it was imminent, unless some miracle.

And my wanting to get married again, I think, is a tribute to my relationship, my marriage to Bobbie. I loved being married. Somebody has said, like, "Why?" I said, "I loved being married." They ask why. And my answer is, "I loved shepherding my wife." In fact, my first book after Nancy and I got married is a book called Like the Shepherd: Leading Your Marriage with Love and Grace. And I tell this story, of course. [00:30:42]

So Nancy and I were married in November of '15. Ever the capitalist, when Nancy found out that 60,000 people had live streamed our wedding, she said, "I can't believe we didn't do pay-per-view. We could have paid for that thing." I hope that doesn't sound like disrespect. So, yes, we were married and it was an amazing, an amazing celebration. It lasted three days, actually. It started on Friday night, ended on Sunday afternoon.

Now I've had a chance to be married to another amazing woman. And she's very different, very different than Bobbie. But she loves the Lord. She's an amazing Bible teacher. In fact, some of your listeners will know that there's only one woman in the world who is a Bible teacher on a daily broadcast. And that's Nancy.

Revive Our Hearts, Her Ministry has grown exponentially in the last 20-some years. [00:31:51] So I get to be a part of that. I mean, can you imagine? So I could tell you about conferences with tens of thousands of women around the world, really. And so the Lord gave me this incredible woman for 45 years almost and now Nancy, and we've been married since '15.

I had to move, listen to this, I had to move from Orlando, Florida to Southwest Michigan. And I moved in January. When I took my Florida driver's license into the DMV, the lady behind the counter looked at my Florida license and it was snowing outside, and she said, "Nobody does this. Why are you doing this in January?" I said, "Well, her name is Nancy and I'm happy to do this."

Anyway, this has been a privilege. I feel like a spectator looking on the field that's my life. And I'm overwhelmed by it so much of the time. [00:32:56] So it's God's goodness.

Nancy and I wrote a book called You Can Trust God to Write Your Story. And that was published several years ago. And it's true — you can trust God to write your story. So I'm very grateful.

Laura Dugger: You also alluded to one more sweet story. You said, with her being 57 and you were 67, was there more to that story?

Robert Wolgemuth: Yes. In fact, I dedicate the book Finish Line to Nancy because, you know, if you look at actuarial tables, I'm 10 years closer to my finish line than she is. So there's a certain element of sacrifice. First, that she had been a single person all those years. So I'm going to get to my finish line most likely before she does.

Nancy was born in 1958. I was born in 1948. Her mother was born in 1938. So I am 10 years older than Nancy. [00:33:59] And Nancy said to me one day, "Look," before we were married, "if this doesn't work out with us, my mother is still available." Actually, I'm closer in age to her mother by a couple months than I am to her. And we love Nancy's mother. Her daddy is in heaven, but we love her mother. We talk to her every Sunday afternoon. And it's pure joy. But I said, "No, I think I'll take you. I love your mother, but I'm going to take you." So that's been fun.

And we've met a lot of couples now. Some, including her mother and dad, who were 13 years apart. Her daddy was 13 years older. Anyway, I highly recommend being married to a woman like Nancy. She is amazing. I dedicate the book to her. It's the first time a book has ever been dedicated to her. And I say that in the dedication, that she married a man 10 years closer to his finish line than hers. [00:34:59] So it was a huge gift and continues to be a huge gift to me.

Laura Dugger: How did you find out about The Savvy Sauce? Did someone share this podcast with you? Hopefully you've been blessed through the content. And now we would love to invite each of you to share these episodes with friends and help us spread the word about The Savvy Sauce. You can share today's episode or go back and choose any one of your other previous favorites to share. Thanks for helping us out.

There's so many different parts that we could go into as well about the book but I just want to zero in on one part, because we've gone big picture but you get very practical in this chapter about no more secrets. So will you just share more of why you incorporated an urgent call to action in that chapter?

Robert Wolgemuth: Yes. That is a very important chapter. It's a sobering chapter, really. Because my business is representing writers, pastors, teachers, scholars, I've had the opportunity of knowing many down through the years, men and women. [00:36:10] And one of my clients, who is gone, died pretty quickly. Probably three months of his exit ramp.

He was worldwide known and respected. When he died, his people, including his family, were going through his things and discovered a life that nobody knew about. And it's honestly, Laura, one of the great tragedies of my... not just my career, but my life, was the story of this man.

In fact, when he was 17 years old, living on the other side of the earth, my daddy, Dr. Sam Wolgemuth, was preaching at a youth rally and offered an invitation for those who were there to come forward and receive Christ. And one young man came forward, and it was this man. [00:37:14]

We often kind of kidded about the fact that we shared the same dad. My dad in an earthly way for me, and my dad in a heavenly way in a spiritual way for him. So now he's gone, and people are going through his things and discovering really an unthinkable other life.

And so I challenge the people who are reading, and it's really both for men and women, to uncover that before you die. Because this was discovered after my friend died, and he couldn't explain anything. Or he couldn't confess anything, or he couldn't repent of anything. He couldn't fill in the blanks for people who could not figure out what had been going on. So my admonition to the readers is, no secrets. Don't wait until you can't answer questions, or explain things, or ask forgiveness for things. Do it now. [00:38:24]

I tell the story of hiring two young men to work for me in my agency. And they're standing in front of my desk, I'm sitting at my desk, I look to the left and to the right, the drawers in my desk, and then behind me the credenza that had drawers in it, and my computer. And I said, "There's nothing in any of this that you can't have access to." People would say, "Well, that's really bold and brave of you." Actually, no, I'm a coward because I don't want to have to explain stuff.

And I know of my own sinfulness, my own fallenness. And knowing that people have access to that keeps me on the straight and narrow. Because when you hide, you do things you shouldn't do. Sin lurks in the darkness, right?

So this man, whom I knew so well, but didn't know this about, and my admonition to the readers of this book is, don't have the same thing happen to you. [00:39:32] Now is the time for full disclosure, for full transparency, for full repentance and confession, for reconciliation. Because once you're gone, those opportunities are lost

Laura Dugger: Well, I'm so grateful you wrote that chapter, and I'm very sorry about your friend. I can just imagine how confusing that is to process and reconcile who you knew him to be, and then to find out all of these devastating secrets.

Robert Wolgemuth: He was so good at it, Laura, that his family, his wife, had no idea. So what it really discloses is how good we can be at secrets. I mean, we are so skilled at hiding. I'm sure your listeners are going back to the Garden of Eden, right? And they sin, and they hear the sound of the footsteps of God Almighty, and He calls out and says, "Where are you?" [00:40:37]

That's the message of the gospel. It's God going first, sending a Savior, looking at us and saying, "Where are you? I'm here. I'm here. I'm here for you." There are so many wonderful things about the gospel. One of my favorite truths is that God goes first, and calls us out, and loves us, and invites us to repent, and welcomes us as His sons and daughters.

Yeah, no secrets. It's for your good to know that people are going to go through your stuff. So, far better for them to have you alive when they do, than after you're gone, when you can't, as I said, explain, repent, confess. So, no more secrets. That's that chapter.

Laura Dugger: Thank you. As we all age, what are some of the important missions that you want to make sure we do not lose sight of? [00:41:38]

Robert Wolgemuth: We're surrounded by lost people. As I mentioned, Bobbie was an amazing lady. She loved God's Word. She spent early mornings, every morning, early, I mean like in the darkness. Dark O-30, we used to call it. But something that has been sort of new to me, like I'm going to say in the last seven or eight years, is courage to share my love for Christ with others. It's interesting, isn't it?

The Apostle Paul, of all people, Romans chapter 1, said, I'm not ashamed of the gospel. So, for him to say, "I'm not ashamed" means that he knew what that felt like to be ashamed. That was a familiar sensation. So, when I'm anxious, nervous about witnessing to the Uber driver, the Apostle Paul is my friend. So, he understands that little anxiety we feel. [00:42:36]

But the world is filled with lost people who are desperately looking for a Savior, even if they don't know it. So, if it's the Uber driver or the clerk at Lowe's or Home Depot, those people need to hear the gospel. And you're the person who's been sent, gloriously sent, to tell them about Jesus.

I guess my admonition to your listeners, to all of us, is don't miss opportunities to tell people about your love for Christ and to pray with them. I'll bet, since I married Nancy, I bet we've said, I'm going to pick a number, 200 times, to people unknown to us, but known to Christ, how can we pray for you? Nobody has ever said, "Well, you can't. There's nothing that you can pray for." Everyone, every single one, has said, "Well, let me tell you about my wayward son. Let me tell you about the anxiety that I feel. I need peace." [00:43:48]

And so we have the joy. Whether it's the guy fixing the sprinkler system or, as I said, an Uber driver, people love the kind words of somebody who's inviting the Father into the presence of this conversation. And honestly, the more you do that, the easier it gets.

And it's important to know, this isn't about collecting scalps or checking a box. This is about loving people who are lost and wanting them to know Jesus. And it changes the whole paradigm. It changes the whole experience. So, there are a lot of things, but I'd put that at the top of the list.

Laura Dugger: Well, and Robert, when we turn the final page of your book, what is the takeaway that you want to ensure we don't forget?

Robert Wolgemuth: Well, I just talked about sharing your faith, we used to call that. Telling others about your love for Christ. [00:44:48] But I would start with, be sure that you're going first. That you're preaching the gospel to yourself. And that you know God's word, that you love His word.

You know, I'm talking to some people right now who are night people and some people who are morning people. The world is divided into morning people and night people, right? But I would say to you that unless you're spending your own time in the word on your knees, you won't have anything to share with people who are lost. So, start there. And I'm so grateful. Nancy's memories of her dad are exactly the same memories of my dad. In fact, they did know each other. But it was spending the first hour or so of your day in the word and on your knees. Once that begins to be part of your DNA, the fabric of your life, then everything changes. [00:45:50]

The gospel is about the relationship that we have, by God's grace, with the Savior. And when that's settled, when that's strong and vibrant, then everything else falls into place. Now, that doesn't mean that things are all rosy. I lost my wife to death, to cancer. But what it does, it gives you perspective. It's the kernel of wheat that falls into the ground and dies. If it doesn't die, it remains a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds.

So, that's my story. I want the memory of my life to be exactly that. That the harvest of my life will be people who I was able to love into the kingdom, people that I was able to encourage, to serve. That's what really matters. So, that's my story.

Laura Dugger: Well, one of my favorite parts of your book, I'll just quote you from page 197, where you write, "My deepest hope is that you and I will be ready." [00:46:54] That's my prayer for our family and friends and people we've not even met yet and truly, just everyone listening to this podcast today. Robert, your book gives us a sobering perspective of how close the end may be. Will you share where we can go to learn more from you after today's conversation?

Robert Wolgemuth: Well, yes. Let me just go back to the word "ready". I own golf clubs, but I'm not really a golfer. I play occasionally. But there's an expression in golf called ready golf. So typically, and this is a gentleman's game, a gentle lady's game, right, you don't hit the ball until you get to your ball. And it's the furthest from the pin. So, if you're playing with a foursome, you always wait for them to play. Unless the golf course is crowded and then you play ready golf. Which means you don't wait for the other guys in your foursome to hit their ball. You hit yours. If you get to your ball and they haven't hit theirs, you go ahead and play. And that's called ready golf. [00:48:10]

And I talk about the importance of being ready. You know, there's so much anxiety that we experience when we're not ready. Okay, so let me take you back to college or graduate school. You're walking into a classroom. You're going to be tested and you're not prepared. How do you feel about that experience? I mean, your heart is pounding in your temples. You can hardly see straight because you're not ready.

And the joy of knowing Christ and of serving Him, of humbly repenting of your sin, is to be ready to not have to live with that anxiety. And so I talk about being ready. In fact, years ago, Dr. Tim LaHaye said something I've never forgotten. And I've repeated this hundreds of times. That a book is a long letter to one person. [00:49:11]

And so each time that I've written a book, I write it to one person. That sounds crazy, doesn't it? But I have, in the past, put a yellow post-it note on the corner of my screen and I've written a whole book to one person. So when I refer to the reader, I refer to the reader as you. And you and me. I'm picturing us with a cup of coffee between us. And it's a conversation. There's no microphone. There's no platform. It's just you and me.

So I've actually written this book to a particular man. Ashley and his wife. And if those people come to faith in Christ, I love them. They're dear friends, but they're lost. That would be worth, I don't know, pick a number, 350 or 500 hours of writing this thing. [00:50:12]

Because that's forever. Knowing these people would know Christ and spend eternity in heaven would be worth the time it took to write this book. So I don't know if that's helpful, but that's surely my heart.

Laura Dugger: Wow. Yes, Lord, let it be so. That is our prayer that they and many others would come to know and experience and enjoy you now and forevermore. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen.

Robert Wolgemuth: Thank you.

Laura Dugger: Well, Robert, I do want to encourage everyone to pick up a copy of this book at Amazon, or they can also go to Revive Our Hearts. We'll put links to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. But you may be familiar we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

Robert Wolgemuth: Years ago, Zig Ziglar, who... first I listened to all of his tapes. Remember tapes? [00:51:19]

Laura Dugger: Yes.

Robert Wolgemuth: And then by God's grace, had a chance to meet him and publish him. So we became friends. You know, he's got this fabulous twang, southern drawl, and incredibly lovable and loved Christ. But he had this thing that he had little plastic poker chips printed with these two words, round, R-O-U-N-D, Tuit, T-U-I-T. And so he passed them out to his audience, sometimes thousands of people. And he would say, you know, a lot of people know what they ought to do and just haven't gotten around to getting it done. So he said, you know, people say, "I'll do that when I... you know, I'll get a Round Tuit." And he laughs and he says, "Now look at your chip. It says "Round Tuit" on it. And so now you have no excuse to not get around tuit." [00:52:25]

So I talk about a lot of practical things in the book, like planning your funeral, about making sure that your will is in good shape. 60% of us don't have a will. That means the state decides what charity your money goes to when you die rather than you deciding on where that goes or your kids or grandkids, where your funds, your wealth goes to. So there's a lot of stuff like that. We're all procrastinators. We say, Yeah, that's a good idea. Maybe someday I'll get around tuit."

So the savvy sauce is don't wait. In fact, years ago, I heard actually a layman giving his testimony and he talked about the woman who poured expensive ointment on Jesus' feet. And he said... I'll never forget this. He said, "There's no way that she thought about this in great detail." Because if she had thought about it, she never would have done it. [00:53:26]

And how often do we like writing a thank you note to a friend or picking up the phone and calling a friend, an old friend, whatever. You say, well, someday I'll get around tuit. No, my challenge, I think the secret sauce, the savvy sauce, is don't wait. If you feel prompting to reconcile with a friend or having the hard conversation with your mate, don't wait. Get to it. And of course, in the book, we talk about planning your funeral and buying your burial plot. Not for you, but for the people who survive you.

But my encouragement is to not wait, to get on the things that need to be done, especially your own relationship with Christ. But do it. Get it done. My favorite advertising slogan is Nike's. Just do it. Don't wait. There's no time limit. Like right now. So that would be my encouragement. Maybe that's my savvy sauce.

Laura Dugger: I love it. [00:54:25] That is wonderfully convicting in a good way. And something came to mind for me, and I hope it does for everyone listening.

Robert Wolgemuth: Great. That's wonderful.

Laura Dugger: But Robert, I so appreciate you sharing your gifts with us and documenting all of this timeless truth in yet another one of your books. So thank you for this labor of love. And thank you for being my guest today.

Robert Wolgemuth: What a pleasure. Thank you, Laura. Blessings to you and blessing to the people who are listening to this. I'm so grateful.

Laura Dugger: Amen.

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. [00:55:27] So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

So would you pray with me now? [00:56:25] Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:57:30] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce

Practical chats for intentional living

A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.

They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!