204. Charlotte Mason Inspired Mini-Series: A Delectable Education with Emily Kiser
John 10:10, "The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly."
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
Will you unpack a few points from Charlotte Mason’s philosophy of education?
How do you explain what a "living book" is?
How can we (practically) lay this feast before our children, regardless of our child’s method of schooling?
Emily Kiser is privileged to be the mother of four unique persons and be able to teach them about God, themselves and the world. For the past sixteen years she has operated a private lending library for local families full of living books. In that capacity she became acquainted with the teaching methods of Charlotte Mason and has devoted herself to learning as much as possible about the philosophy and practice of that great educational pioneer. It has been her great delight to help families implement the Charlotte Mason model of education locally through the Living Books Library, regionally by teaching seminars, and beyond with her Picture Study Portfolios and A Delectable Education Podcast. A perpetual student herself, Emily can imagine no greater joy than to share in the educational journey of her own children as they enjoy the feast of ideas and build relationships in as many directions as possible under the ultimate guidance of the Holy Spirit–the Supreme Educator of Mankind.
A Delectable Education Podcast
Emily's Book Recommendations:
A Tree for Peter by Kate Seredy
Little Britches by Ralph Moody
Roller Skates by Ruth Sawyer
Pilgrim's Progress by John Bunyan
A Little Princess by Frances Hodgson Burnett
Thank You to Our Sponsor: Leman Property Management Company
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:01] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home, with over 1,700 apartment units available in central Illinois. Visit them today at LemanProperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.
Earlier this year, one of my favorite friends passed away. Her name is Heather, and we met early on in motherhood. She's the person who introduced me to Charlotte Mason. And the more I read about Charlotte's biblical perspective, the more I desired this philosophy to influence our parenting.
I believe her wisdom is a hidden gem, and so I want to share it with others, beginning today with my guest, Emily Kiser. Emily is the host of A Delectable Education, where the hope is to spread the feast of the Charlotte Mason Method. [00:01:19]
She's my first guest in a mini-series to share more about Charlotte Mason's philosophy on cultivating moral character and making learning irresistible for life. The rest of the series is going to take place on Patreon, so I hope that you'll join Patreon to make sure you hear the rest of these episodes in addition to our growing library of bonus podcast episodes.
You can join by going to thesavvysauce.com and clicking the Patreon tab, then click on "Join Patreon here" to follow the prompts. But for today, we get to enjoy an intro into this philosophy and learn some actionable takeaways to help us implement ideas to encourage a more peaceful home.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Emily.
Emily Kiser: Oh, I'm so glad to be here. Thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger: My pleasure. We are going to begin by going back. So, how did you come to meet and follow Jesus Christ? [00:02:20]
Emily Kiser: Well, I always am a little trepidatious answering this question because I have been a believer for as long as I can remember. I don't remember a day that I didn't know about God, know that He sent His Son to die for me, and that that was the only path to salvation. Obviously, my faith has grown and deepened as I've gotten older, but as far as I know, I've always trusted in Jesus.
Laura Dugger: That is incredible. At what point did you also encounter Charlotte Mason?
Emily Kiser: Well, I personally was homeschooled only for the first three years of my formal education, and then I went to public school and through all the way through high school graduation. And then I went to a private Christian college. And then I moved home after graduation. That's a whole other story.
At that time, I wasn't really against homeschooling, but I never thought I would home-educate my own children if I ever had any. [00:03:21]
But I have always loved books. I started a private lending library with my mother out of our home, and we supported local homeschooling families. And it was through that library that we started giving seminars about how to use the type of books that we had in our library, which we call living books, in whatever homeschool method our patrons were using. We just wanted them to be able to use our resource that we had available to them.
And so through that, I just very vaguely knew about Charlotte Mason as one of the major methods of home education. But I didn't really meet her until I started reading her books aloud to my mom, who is blind, and they were not at that time available. She couldn't get them in Braille, and they were not available on audio. So I was about 25 or 26 years old at that time, but that was all it took. I just fell in love with her method. [00:04:20]
Well, I had various experience myself with different educational paradigms, both at home and in my public and private college education. And then I had spent several years while we were developing the library, reading about different educational philosophies, especially classical education. But when I encountered Charlotte Mason's method, I just recognized the truth that she wrote about. I absolutely agreed with her that the foundation for education lies in the Gospels and Jesus's words about how we were to treat and view our children.
From there, I just began helping my mom, who was at the time homeschooling my very much younger siblings who were adopted. And we just tried to implement her method as much as we could.
So both of my younger brothers have fairly severe learning challenges, but I saw them flourish. And so I knew if this method of education could respect them as persons and enable them to grow and make progress and still enjoy learning, that it would work for anyone. [00:05:25] And so from that time on, her philosophy has not only shaped my vision for education, but has also changed me as a person. I don't like to think about what kind of mother I would be now if the Lord hadn't brought this mentor in Charlotte Mason into my life when He did.
Laura Dugger: You are the mother of four children who you are home-educating. Can you remind us of their ages?
Emily Kiser: Sure. I have a nine-year-old, an almost eight-year-old, an almost six-year-old daughter. All the rest are boys. My daughter is about to start formal lessons this coming school year. And then my youngest is four.
Laura Dugger: Okay. You and I are in a very similar stage of life. But I would love for you to unpack a few points from Charlotte Mason's philosophy of education. So I'm just going to read some of her quotes and then I'll allow you to elaborate. She writes that "there are three educational instruments, the atmosphere of environment, the discipline of habit, and the presentation of living ideas." So will you share what this means for us today?[00:06:37]
Emily Kiser: Mm-hmm. This is from one of her mottos that was adopted by her school of education as an atmosphere. A discipline and a life is another shorter way to say that same idea. Charlotte Mason taught us that these are the only three instruments that we as teachers, as parents, that we can use without infringing on the personhood of our students.
The environment that they find themselves in is largely controlled by the teacher and especially by us mothers. Kind of if you want to think about it in the way she describes it, is the air around them. We're not even really aware, but it clearly affects everything about us. So our attitude towards our children, the rhythms and routines that we establish, the things that we choose to expose them to or not, those are all part of that atmosphere. So that is still very relevant for us today.
The second part is maybe the one that most people have trouble with when they hear education is a discipline. [00:07:36] They may think or misunderstand what she's saying, and they might equate that with punishment. But that is not at all what Charlotte Mason meant.
She used that term "discipline" in conjunction with the habits that we form as persons and that we help our children to form in themselves. So it's much more helpful if we equate discipline with term discipleship, which is really their synonyms. So disciples strive to become like their masters.
Throughout Christianity, we have understood how the habits or practices of our lives shape us more and more into the image of Christ. And Charlotte Mason believed that the physical habits that we develop form habits in our brains. And modern research has revealed that to be true, confirmed what she knew kind of in proto-science that was happening at her time.
But because of this, the entirety of her method is structured to encourage habits of the good life. She called it like attention and the habit of obedience and the habit of kindness or honesty and on and on and on. [00:08:42] So if we are training our children in these things, then that will shape them as persons and helps them live a more smooth and easy life that's not beset by as many troubles as those who are undisciplined, you might say.
Then the third instrument is the presentation of living ideas. This is perhaps the most direct or vital instrument that we have at our disposal as mothers, as teachers. Charlotte Mason believed that the mind needed ideas in order to grow. And she often referred to ideas as mind food. So living ideas are those ideas that take on a life of their own inside ourselves. The things that we can't stop thinking about, that they go in deep and really shape and mold us as people as we digest them by thinking about them more and interacting with them.
So that is the main consideration that we make as we consider what our children should learn about. And that's why I say presentation of living ideas is probably the most direct, although the others are definitely informed by parents as well. [00:09:51]
Laura Dugger: Can you even give a recent example in your own family of what a living idea looked like?
Emily Kiser: Oh, my goodness. I always am at a loss when I'm put on the spot to come up with examples. One that sticks out in my mind because we just visited there is we went to Tuskegee Institute on the way home from our recent vacation. That was because one of my children who was in school read a biography of him about a year ago and has asked consistently, "can we go visit his laboratory, which they turned into a museum?" ever since then.
So he had this idea, he had this connection from reading about this man, and he so desired, he wanted to go and visit and see the things. And he said, "Oh, mom, are they going to have some of his rocks?" Because the book that we read had described his rock collection that he carried with him wherever he went.
And so just to see that excitement and interest persist over this last year, and then that he already had a connection with this man in this museum. [00:11:00] And I think the rangers at the museum were a little taken with how interested they were.
Laura Dugger: I love that. Because I've always envisioned it as even just sharing, maybe from our own quiet time with the Lord, a scripture that really stood out to us or reading a book together. It sounds like the options are really limitless.
Emily Kiser: Absolutely. That reminds me of another, actually the same child. And he's done this a couple of times. But in our Bible lessons, I will open up and ask an open-ended question after we've read the passage from scripture, and then they've narrated or told back to me in their own words what the story was about.
So we just recently read the parable of the vineyard where the vineyard owner hires workers at the beginning of the day, and then he goes out later at the middle of the day and hires more, and then he hires some at the end of the day and then pays them all the same wage. And I asked, well, Jesus said at the beginning of this parable, the kingdom of God is like, and what do you think that is? And so the words of scripture here are giving that living idea. [00:12:05]
And my seven, almost eight-year-old said, without any hesitation, well, the vineyard owner is God and the workers that were hired at the beginning of the day are like those people who've been Christians their whole lives. And those hired at the end of the day are those who have become Christians like four seconds before they die. He was very precise about that.
And I said, "Okay, and what was the wage that they earned?" And he said that Jesus died on the cross to save them from their sin. And I was just so blown away that the words of scripture could just immediately communicate that truth to him when his own disciples, who had lived with him for years, had a problem understanding what he was talking about. But that is a true living idea.
Laura Dugger: Wow, that's an amazing example. And really, this conversation reminds me of another one of Charlotte's quotes where she says, "Education is a life. The need of intellectual and moral as well as of physical sustenance is implied. [00:13:08] The mind feeds on ideas and therefore children should have a generous curriculum." So is there anything else you would like to add about ways to give our children a generous supply of ideas?
Emily Kiser: Well, I think the main thing to keep in mind is that we do need to be spreading a wide feast of ideas. And just those examples show that children are really hungry, the two examples I shared about my son, that they're hungry for those ideas.
But also we can't control which ideas are going to spark living thought for our children. And so because of that, we recognize the seriousness of our duty to supply ideas. But also we have humility at the same time because we are not directing, Oh, my child needs X from my point of view, I'm going to give them this living idea. You know, our hands are kind of tied at that point.
But we don't want to waste time giving our students busy work or letting them drown their minds in what Charlotte Mason called What Is Twaddle which she described as the mental equivalent of eating sawdust for our brains. [00:14:18] We want to spread a wide feast. That's kind of the tagline of our podcast because we see it as this beautiful metaphor for the whole method that Charlotte Mason laid out for us.
So that means to spread a wide feast would be exposing our students to a varied curriculum that would include subjects well beyond the three R's such as humanities and STEM subjects, but taught via living books, because that is what Charlene Mason believed the best medium to convey these living ideas.
And I think we probably all know, but maybe we don't always articulate in the same way, that humans are especially created to absorb information in a literary form. And that's why we always remember the sermon illustration more than necessarily the exposition, right? We connect with the story and it sparks our imagination and captures our attention.
And so because we were created that way, we learn best through living books. I would say supply a wide variety of living books. [00:15:21] Make sure you're giving your children ideas about all kinds of things and not just one thing.
But we also learn from hands-on observation besides living books. The wide feast is also full of material objects that would give us living ideas, too, from the study of the natural world or nature study, as we call it, the world that God created, all the way to science experiments or maps and pictures and music and singing.
So all of those things, I would say, help give your child a supply of ideas that are going to meet each one where he is and give them plenty of nourishment to take as he needs, he himself as a unique individual needs.
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
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[00:18:02] <music>
Laura Dugger: Could you also give us an example of the material objects and what that looks like?
Emily Kiser: Sure. This is probably the easiest one in order. You know, it's sometimes hard to learn how to discern living books, but as far as material objects, the number one would be, get outside and ask questions. Like ask questions of yourself. Like, I wonder why this is doing this, or I wonder what this flower's name is, or I wonder why I see this kind of plant over here and this kind of plant over there? And just start to notice and pay attention to the things outside our door.
This is applicable to anybody, no matter where they live. I happen to live in the country on several acres of land. And so people think, oh, you're so lucky and have all this at your fingertips. But honestly, I'm not walking from place to place as much as people in the city who might learn much more, you know, these specific trees and their neighborhoods or see the same birds or get to actually study a squirrel's behavior far more than I do. So I would say that's the best.[00:19:06]
And then, you know, I just think of art. I mean, that's a personal interest of mine, but it was developed by my blind mother and my father who had no education. But they thought it was important. We lived in a small town away from a big city. And so every time we went on a trip or were passing through a big city, we always went to museums and saw objects of art. No exposition. There was no instruction. It was just exposure. And I think that that's another easy one.
Wonderful music. A wide variety, classical music as well as folk songs, those are all wonderful things to do.
And then to make experiments. Like if your child has a question about why something is instead of just getting the answer to allow them to have the time to wrestle with and explore and ask that question and wonder and then maybe find an experiment that would help come to that conclusion that they can participate in through that experience. [00:20:05]
Laura Dugger: I love that example, too, because I don't have it memorized, but there is brain science that backs this up. I believe in the way God created us that when we go to interest-led learning, I believe it's dopamine that comes in our brain and washes over us. Is that right?
Emily Kiser: I think that's right. I've read similar things, too. Yeah.
Laura Dugger: Well, and this is perhaps my favorite point of Charlotte Mason's philosophy. But she writes, "We should allow no separation to grow up between the intellectual and spiritual life of children, but should teach them that the divine spirit has constant access to their spirits and is their continual helper in all the interests, duties and joys of life." So, Emily, what are some examples of ways we can live this out as we disciple our own children?
Emily Kiser: Yes, that's a great question. So first, this is a culmination. Charlotte Mason kind of distilled her six volumes of educational thought at the time. [00:21:09] It was not that many because one of them was published after she died. But all of the things that she had written about her philosophy, she distilled into what she called a short synopsis. And this is the last point of that short synopsis.
And the reason that she says there is no separation or we should not allow any separation to grow up between the intellectual and, quote, "spiritual life" is because she believed ideas were central to education, and really, to us as persons. An idea is a spiritual thing, right? We may get it from a material source like a plant or a book, but the actual idea is of the spirit world. And so the way that we deal with them is as spiritual beings.
So she did not believe that there was materialistic education because all education has to be spiritual. So that's just a kind of foundational idea of her method. But this other part of that, we have to go back to the first principle or the first step point in that short synopsis that she says children are born persons. [00:22:12]
Because when we recognize that the person in front of us, our child, no matter how small they are, is not our own possession, and we teach her that she is not her own possession, either, that she belongs to God, we believe that she can and ought to have a relationship with her creator. She is a fully formed person, a fellow image bearer who deserves dignity and respect, as well as correction and training.
So we don't talk down to our children. We expect that they can understand far more than they can communicate when they're little, perhaps. But we also need to trust the Holy Spirit to give insight to them and instruct them. We ourselves need to rely on that same Holy Spirit to gain insight into our children that he has entrusted to us.
So as much as I can, I talk to my kids about the relationship that they are made for with their creator. [00:23:13] And as they express that belief, I talk about the Holy Spirit as their divine helper. I just had a conversation with my daughter the other day who was having a hard time getting control of herself when she was angry. And after she calmed down, she said, "God can help me." And I'm like, "That is right." I think it's kind of starting to sink in that all of these conversations that I've had with her over her life, that He is her help. And she may not be able to gain control, but she has the Holy Spirit who has promised that that's one of the fruits that He gives us is self-control.
Also, that whenever they have any need, that they can turn to Him. So when something wonderful or delightful happens to a child, we always thank God for His good gifts. When I'm correcting a child, I discuss their duties that God has given them to obey, to be kind, love one another. Those are kind of always the ones that are at the forefront of our conversation. [00:24:15]
And then we just read the Bible with them from the age of six on. They are reading the words of Scripture. I'm not reading necessarily all of the most gory passages from Scripture, but we are reading the words of Scripture because that is a way that they're building their relationship with their divine teacher.
So we discuss spiritual things. And all of that that I've been saying really has created an atmosphere that teaches them that God is omnipresent and he desires to know and to be known by them.
Laura Dugger: That is beautiful. Another term Charlotte uses is mother culture, but this may be a new term to some of us. So will you teach us what mother culture is all about?
Emily Kiser: Sure. You know, I don't know if Charlotte Mason used it, but she talks about the idea for sure. It is a term that was coined by another writer in the Parents Review, which was an educational magazine that she edited. [00:25:16]
And it refers to the duty of us as mothers to continue to educate ourselves. This is for practical reasons. We need to know things in order to care for or raise or educate our children. We don't have that. I wish we did. But we don't have all of that knowledge just downloaded to us the moment we have a child brought into this world. So we need to continue to learn.
But also, besides the practical aspects of it, we need to share intellectual development as our own persons. And so that process of learning and to continue to learn at our own level as adults gives us an understanding sympathy that Charlotte Mason said was absolutely essential in our relationship with our children because we need to understand the work that they're going through. And that really creates a camaraderie and a rapport with them as they learn new things.
And also it broadens our own interests. [00:26:16] It gives us as mothers, which sometimes we feel lost in the process of raising and caring for children because it is such an all-consuming task. But it gives us a fuller life and then models that for our children, that we are always learning and growing. And that doesn't stop when we graduate from school.
Charlotte Mason, when she was living, which was a while ago, obviously over... she died a hundred years ago. She developed a mother's education course at the time when it was not... I mean, just the first women were even being able to go to university and get degrees. So she was, I think, ahead of her time. But she developed a formal mother's education course that assigned work for the year. They had exams, they had to write papers kind of a thing.
So we at Delectable Education, we have created an informal book list and it's modeled on that course. And that can be a great place to start if you are like, "I don't even know what I should be reading." [00:27:16] And it has stretched us as well because we don't always read in all these categories ourselves. But that has been a great, great learning experience for us. And we are about to publish, I think, our fourth year of that list. So there's no exams, there's no papers due. You can read them in any order, pick and choose titles. But that's a good place to start.
Laura Dugger: Well, and you're talking about reading. Charlotte Mason definitely exhorts parents to read aloud and also encourage their children to read only the best books and to read them often. Emily, what acronym have you created to explain exactly what a living book is?
Emily Kiser: Okay, so it uses the word LIVING. It's very creative. I don't know why, but it seems to fit and encapsulate all of the things that we were wanting to say about it or distill all the things that Charlotte Mason says about what makes a living book. [00:28:17]
So the L is for literary power. That means the language itself is wonderful. It's worthy of notice. It's words so perfectly chosen that the mind grasps them and images are created. That is true literary power. Charlotte Mason said that a book without literary power was like having beautiful pictures painted that you could not see because your eyes were covered or being introduced to people who do not live and act in your thoughts. A lack of literary power is just crippling for our intellect because it lacks a beauty sense. So something beautiful about how the words have been chosen.
Then the first I is for living ideas. The ideas that capture the imagination. They plant a seed that germinates in the mind and causes one to continue to wonder and ponder it. [00:29:15] And even to pursue further knowledge about the subject, as we were talking about earlier, the ideas really take hold of us. And there are so many books full of living ideas.
What is even more wonderful is that different ideas in the same book can grab hold of us each in different ways. Even grab us at different times in our life. I think about books I've read over and over and how new things strike me because I have different experience and have grown since the last time I read it. So what one child grasps or excites his imagination, another might overlook in favor of a different idea.
Now V is for virtuous. So living books are those that exemplify virtue or virtuous living. So the characters like us struggle to make the right decision. But they ultimately do or sometimes dire consequences occur. When we connect with a living book, the characters and figures in it become real people to us, even if they're fictional.[00:30:19] And we can live vicariously through their choices.
So let's take A Little Princess, for example. I loved this book as a child and still do. So in this story, Sarah, who was used to having all of the best possessions that many could buy, she was a very, very indulged child, all of a sudden has become destitute. Her life has become very hard. And she has found just a small amount of money and she is so hungry. And she goes to this bakery and looks in the window and sees these hot buns and she just is so overcome. She's going to spend her money on that because she is so hungry.
But as she's going into the shop, she sees a small beggar girl who's even hungrier and more poor than herself. And she has this internal battle, Do I share this food that I could eat all of? And it wouldn't even touch my hunger. But she has more need of it. [00:31:19]
So as you read this story, you're caught up in this, you know, what would you do kind of a thing. And so children are going to identify with that. They're also going to identify with her struggle as she kind of has to force herself to do the right thing. The best living books are going to do that in a way that's not moralistic or preachy to the child. But they're just reading the story and they're captivated because they identify and have identified with Sarah's plight.
But that doesn't mean that all of the characters are always going to make right choices or be examples of virtue in every circumstance.
Another famous example would be Pinocchio, who mostly never does the right thing. Right? And he has disastrous results as he pursues his own desires. So this type of living example can also be instructive for the reader as the bad choices result in consequences. And after struggling with a character like Pinocchio, we are overjoyed when he finally chooses the harder path to love and serve another above himself. [00:32:24]
So the second I is for inspiring. Living books are inspiring when the author is passionate about their subject and they transmit that passion to the reader. This is the major reason why textbooks are not considered living books for the most part, because they're written by multiple authors or committees whose members may individually be passionate. But that gets lost in a collaboration on a text. But a passionate author also does not water down or predigest their subject as they write it for the reader. But they want to pass on their own knowledge and do it in such a way that their interests become ours.
N in living is for narrative. When we think about books that are narrative, that could mean books that are told like a story. And there are so many living books that that is true of, both fiction as well as nonfiction. But narrative doesn't always take that form. [00:33:23]
The use of wonderful language and imagery can evoke such vivid pictures in our mind's eye that we see what is being described. And we understand it better than if all the facts were just listed. Charlotte Mason said living books put the flesh on dry bones of facts. And the narrative quality of a book does just that.
It also means that living books can be narrated. So narration is when we tell back the ideas. You've probably heard the famous quote, it's been attributed to many people: that you don't know anything until you can explain it to someone else. That is essentially what narration is.
So when narrative quality is present in a living book, we're able to comprehend those ideas and to organize the material that we just took in and then relate any previous knowledge and experience that we ourselves may have and then tell others about it, what we read or heard.
And sometimes it does take a little bit of time to be able to narrate a book. Sometimes a book is tough and we have to chew on it for a little while before we can distill that. [00:34:29] Or sometimes it's a hard topic that we don't quite know, but we hear about these things that we read with our kids later on as they've had some time to wrestle with it.
Narrative books make us feel like we've actually had those experiences that are being described, but we haven't had to experience them ourselves, which can be very beneficial in things that we wouldn't really want our children to have to go through themselves, but they can vicariously do that in a narrative book. Then finally, G is for generational.
Living books are generational because they are enjoyed over and over throughout life and from one generation to the next. Most classic books got to be called such because they've been enjoyed by people over and over throughout history and they speak to us because they contain a bit of the truth of the human condition.
And so different details like different time periods and the dress and technology, they don't stand in the way of us enjoying and learning from a book because they convey essential truth in the ideas that remain relevant to us. [00:35:35]
C.S. Lewis wrote several great essays about that concept in his book of Other Worlds. He said, "No book is really worth reading at the age of 10, which is not equally and often far more worth reading at the age of 50, except of course, books of information. The only imaginative works we ought to grow out of are those which it would have been better not to have read at all."
So all six of those letters can be kind of a test for what a living book is and they can all be distilled into this one overarching principle that living books capture our imagination. And we are changed and moved by these books so that after reading one, we are never exactly the same again. So that's the kind of book we have in our library and that Shalom Mason expected us to use and present to our children.
Laura Dugger: I think you're probably making all of us eager to read. [00:36:35] It would be helpful to have a few titles that you recommend. So I won't ask you what your favorite books are, but what are a few titles that come to mind that your children have enjoyed recently or they really stand out to you from childhood?
Emily Kiser: Well, I mentioned A Little Princess. I actually do have three favorite children's books. I have narrowed it down to those three. The first is a small, unassuming book that has been reprinted so you can still get it called A Tree for Peter by Kate Seredy. And we and our family read this very regularly. Most Christmases we read it. It's like, I don't know, six chapters or something like that. It has some beautiful illustrations.
Little Britches by Ralph Moody. And that's one we all have enjoyed as a family as well. His exploits and things that his parents have taught him have kind of made their way into our family conversations and anecdotes.
Roller Skates by Ruth Sawyer. [00:37:38] Let's see. The Pilgrim's Progress has been a favorite of my boys. We read that for school. And it's just shocking to me because a lot of adults, even myself, have a hard time reading it and understanding what's going on. And they took to it like ducks take to water. And yeah, things come up often that I know they got from that book.
Laura Dugger: Well, that is so helpful. Thank you for giving us a few examples to get started. If you've benefited in any way from The Savvy Sauce, we would love to invite you to become a patron. If every listener gave just $1 per month, it would completely offset all our production costs. We want to keep majority of our content free to the public. And one way to do that is with your help. Please consider joining Patreon today and finding out what perks you can receive for pledging $2, $5, or even $20 per month. [00:38:35]
Another Charlotte Mason idea is laying an educational feast before our children, which you've alluded to. But will you share a few more elements of what all is included in that feast?
Emily Kiser: Sure. So, off the top of my head, I probably will miss them, but on a regular basis each week, we cover in our school lessons Bible, both Old Testament and New Testament, language arts of a wide variety, math, natural history, and science, artist study where we look at pictures by famous artists, multiple pictures over the course of a school term, composer study where we listen to multiple works by a famous composer, literature, poetry, Shakespeare, history, geography, recitation, which is not so much memorizing, although that often happens, but it's learning to speak beautifully, to say and read in such a way that you impart meaning to your audience so they understand the text better themselves, citizenship, physical education, singing, handicrafts. [00:39:48] Oh, and art. Like we make, we draw and do watercolor painting and things like that ourselves.
Laura Dugger: A huge variety of things.
Emily Kiser: So those are just during the school morning. And then in the afternoons, there's of course a lot of free time because our morning lessons, Charlotte Mason was adamant, needed to be short and confined to specific times of day so that our students have time to kind of interact with those materials on their own schedule.
The mornings, packing all of that into short morning lessons can seem like a whirlwind, but then they have hours in the outdoor where they can explore nature in a more intentional way and just have freedom to roam and play and use their bodies and their lungs to a much better capacity than they do inside. And we do drawing and some of our handicrafts and folk dancing and reading aloud as our afternoon occupations. [00:40:50] So a lot of things that help spread that wide feast.
Laura Dugger: Well, this all sounds so wonderful. If we desire to lay this feast before our children, how do you recommend that we manage our time so that we can fit everything in? Because I'm even thinking of the time it would take to prepare these lessons to share with the children.
Emily Kiser: Sure. Yes. So there is a lot. And I would say it can be burdensome for those of us who were not raised this way and it's not a natural part of our life, but I think it is so worth it when... like I'm looking out the window right now and all of my children have their bike helmets on. They've been whipping around, and now they're building a fort under some trees. And just the creativity and interest that they have is just so worth it.
So the first thing you should know is this is not an hour on each of these things every day. It's short lessons. That was another tenant of Charlotte Mason's method. So in the school morning, which for the lower elementary was only two and a half hours maximum, lessons would range from 10 to 20 minutes tops. [00:42:00]
So we do a lot of things each day. We don't do everything every day. Then the time gradually increases. My upper elementary student has three hours and it goes up to about four hours of formal bookwork lessons in a morning, even in high school. That's the cap on their time. So it is rather intense for those moments.
And so we have to guard, as parents and teachers, have to guard those hours in order to do this. If we think the Wide Feast is worthy pursuit and we agree with Charlotte Mason that they need this wide array of living ideas, we do need to consider our own schedules.
We also have to recognize with that much intense work in the mornings, which it's fairly enjoyable for them because they're moving from one thing to another. They don't have time to get bored or let their mind wander. You know, dawdling over one math problem for that long, it's just the math lesson is going to be over and it's time to move on to something else. [00:43:00]
But because it is intense time for their brains, they do need time and space in the afternoons beyond lessons to be able to kind of process a lot of those things. So I think that, for us, has to be reflected and guarded against as well in how much out-of-the-home commitments we ourselves make either for our children or for ourselves. That we can't be running errands every day and not having just some wide space in our days.
And so, yeah, I think time management of ourselves, diligence and consistency and getting up and getting meals ready on time and starting school, those all help to make that successful. But as far as fitting it all in, the method and the timetable really helps us achieve that during our school day.
Laura Dugger: And then for you personally, when do you prepare these lessons?
Emily Kiser: Mm-hmm. So I'm a little unusual in that I have been studying Charlotte Mason... well, I had been studying Charlotte Mason for 10 years before I had any children of my own. So that is not normally the case. Part of my work is I help develop school plans and choose books and resources for families to use as they implement Charlotte Mason. [00:44:17] So that part does not take me nearly as much effort as another person.
But as I do the bulk of my planning for the forthcoming school year, I try to have that done before summer because of my own personal schedule. But most people do that during the summer before. So I know what books we have. I've even kind of paced those out in a way so I kind of know how much we can cover in a single day or a single week lesson.
And then while we're in school, each day at the end of the day, as we're putting our materials away, I take about 20 minutes and look at that day the following week and prepare less. I just skim over anything that might need to be skimmed. I pull any extra resources that I might need. And I just have a little system for doing that each day so that I'm kind of spreading my planning out instead of doing it on a weekend day, which I know a lot of people do as well. That just does not work for me personally. It would just never get done. So I do a little bit every day to help facilitate that. [00:45:20]
Laura Dugger: Okay, that's helpful to hear how you implement it. I'm just going to limit myself to one more Charlotte Mason quote where she simply writes, "Our aim in education is to give a full life." That always reminds me of what Jesus said in John 10:10, The thief does not come except to steal and to kill and to destroy. I have come that they may have life and that they may have it more abundantly.
Emily Kiser: Amen.
Laura Dugger: Emily, how can we all lay this feast before our children, regardless of the child's method of schooling?
Emily Kiser: Well, I agree with Charlotte Mason that a full life depends on this broad exposure to all kinds of ideas. And so I think no matter what method of schooling we're doing, we can look at our coursework. We can supplement anything that they may be getting in a more traditional school setting by exposing them to other subjects. [00:46:20]
So when our educational goals are very narrow, it does tend to lead to a restricted life. I'm reading currently a beautiful book about the unintended effects of modern farming. And over and over something that has just struck a chord and it resonates with me based on my experience with Charlotte Mason, that he says specialization is death or something to that effect.
And in his case, the farming practices that raise just one type of crop have literally destroyed the ecosystem in that area. And it ultimately harms that single crop too, as the soil deteriorates and other natural things aren't building it up. So I think that is an apt metaphor for our children.
If we raise them only to focus on one single career goal, or if we train them to measure success by financial gain, then they're going to be stifled. The ecosystem of their souls are going to be diminished. [00:47:22] And so in order to avoid that, we want them to be curious about all kinds of things in all different subject areas.
So we can do that by giving equal importance to picture study, as much as math, for example. As we are curious and continue to learn ourselves, we're modeling that intellectual habit for our children. So I told you earlier that we just went to Tuskegee to see George Washington Carver's laboratory. He was an amazing man. And what was so striking to me is that he did so much to help others around him with his immense curiosity and his interest in all sorts of things.
He was a scientist. He had a rock collection. He didn't study the science of geology. He was fascinated by them. But he also was a painter and a knitter. And they had examples of both of his works there at the museum.
One quote that he said, and I think goes along with this conversation, he said, "No individual has any right to come into the world and go out of it without leaving behind him distinct and legitimate reasons for having passed through it." [00:48:28] And that just was so challenging to me personally. But I see in the life that he lived that he did carry that out, and it was a very full life, and it touched so many people beyond him.
Laura Dugger: Well, and Emily, you have done so much work that can benefit all of us listening. So where can we go online to learn more about the work that you have to offer?
Emily Kiser: Well, the first place probably would be our podcast, A Delectable Education. It is on every podcast platform that you might want. We are wrapping up our eighth year of podcasting, so we have over 250 episodes. So you could do a really deep dive if you wanted.
We also have many teacher help and other resources available on our website, which is adelectableeducation.com.
I also do have a website for our library. It's not maintained as much since I have had children and have educated them and have done all of the work with our podcast. But that is livingbookslibrary.com. [00:49:28]
And we do have book lists if you wanted more ideas about living books. We have top picks on different subjects, even, that you can find books about different subjects if you're interested in just some suggestions.
If you'd like to widen your own feast with picture study, I've produced some picture study portfolios and Bible picture portfolios that are available at simplycharlottemason.com. We also have Facebook and Instagram accounts, both under A Delectable Education.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will link to all of that in the show notes for today's episode. And you may be familiar we are called The Savvy Sauce, because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?
Emily Kiser: Well, it wouldn't surprise you if you listen to this conversation, but really the daily rhythms and household habits and routines that we have. I don't know that I would have developed them as extensively without Charlotte Mason's guidance, but it is literally how I accomplish all of the things that I do. [00:50:35] And for the most part, it helps our home run smoothly.
So everything that I can turn into a habit, I do. I cook during school breaks. I stock our freezer and have a month-long meal rotation that we just cycle through over and over throughout the school year. And my kids have tasks that they do at set times of the day. We kind of peg those basically around meals, and that eliminates so much thought on my part and also constant nagging to get them to do things. So I don't know where I would be without those.
Laura Dugger: And I said that was my final question, but I guess I now have a follow-up. Can you give any more of those specific things that your children do or other things that you have set as a habit?
Emily Kiser: The thing about habits and all of our routines, they are born out of necessity, and the moments that have been like the trying times consistently, when I notice there's a pattern to when people are melting down or things that just are causing constant frustration. [00:51:33] So that's always the point that I look to to determine, how can I make this go smoother?
The other thing is that they build so incrementally. If I were to lay that all out for you, it would probably be overwhelming for most people, but it did not start that way. It was, I have all of this time with this newborn, how are we going to get a general structure to our day?
So with meals, the first thing I started with was before we have a meal, we pick up all of the toys that we had. So that is just a constant thing that continues to this day. When we finish school, we put everything away and then we have lunch. We have free time outside most of the time in the afternoon, and then they can come in and do some of their occupations like drawing and handicrafts that I talked about. And then that stuff gets all picked up before dinner.
So it's the routines that I started early, or however they start generally build and get more involved. And they all have specific household chores. I basically reset those in the summer. And then we have time to practice and get used to them before kind of dethrows of the school year is upon us again. [00:52:41]
So for the last year, my seven-year-old has been responsible for cleaning the kitchen up after every meal because my now nine-year-old did that last year. And he's moved on to some of the laundry and cleaning a bathroom. So they do a lot, but it has all been incremental, if that makes sense.
Laura Dugger: Yes, that is so helpful to hear practical examples. So thank you for sharing. And really, Emily, this has just been such a privilege to have this conversation with you. And it makes me so excited for what's ahead as we dive into this mini-series with your colleagues. So I hope everybody listening subscribes to Patreon so you don't miss parts two and three.
But Emily, you are just a lovely teacher and I appreciate you sharing your gifting with us today. So thank you for being my guest.
Emily Kiser: Oh, it is my pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? [00:53:42] It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. [00:54:43]
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started? [00:55:44]
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
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