208. Tremendous Testimony and Adding Spark into Your Marriage with David & Terri Sumlin
*Disclaimer* This episode is not intended for young ears.
James 4:8 (NKJV) "Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double-minded."
**Transcription Below**
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
As it so often happens, What the enemy meant for evil, God used for your good. How did He begin to do that?
What are some practical things we can be doing in our own relationships to prioritize and delight in our marriages?
What specific stories can you share to encourage married couples and parents?
David and Terri Sumlin are co-founders of Marriage Life Ministries and authors of the Oneness of Marriage®, Intimacy of Marriage®, and Marriage Innovators Workshop® series designed to help couples enrich their marriages through the application of biblical principles and adventure-based learning. They both have served over the last 18 years as international marriage educators, retreat leaders, pastoral counselors, and conference speakers.
Their unique approach to marital education is built upon some of the advances found in neuroscience, psychology, physiology, and adventure-based therapy, which ultimately is tested through the lens of God’s word for validation. The result is an Activity-Based Marital Enrichment process that helps couples derive behavioral transformation and sustained learning. Couples who participate in these types of marital enrichment programs are 84% more likely to report having increased levels of marital satisfaction long after the program has ended.
David is a native Texan and earned his bachelor's degree in finance from the University of North Texas. He served as a management consultant with the American Productivity & Quality Center and later as an executive for Hewlett Packard. In 2002, after sensing God’s call to enter full-time vocational ministry, David enrolled at Dallas Theological Seminary to pursue a master’s degree in biblical counseling as well as a doctorate in marriage and family ministry. Upon graduating from DTS, he received his call to pastor a church in northwest Houston for seven years before serving as a full-time marriage educator.
Terri was born in Ashland, Kentucky. She earned her bachelor’s degree in Education from the University of North Texas. Upon graduating, Terri has been blessed with a 23-year career as an English teacher. Terri is a leader in women’s ministry and serves full-time alongside David in their combined marriage and family ministry.
David and Terri currently live in Houston, TX and will celebrate their 33rd wedding anniversary this year. They have two children, a son Robin and a daughter Morgan who married the love of her life, Zach and gave the Sumlin’s their first grandson, Brooks and granddaughter Sadie.
The Types of Marital Programs that we offer are three-fold. Marriage Adventures are 7-day high adrenaline programs that include white-water rafting, challenge courses, and other high adventure activities designed to engage the emotional, cognitive, and behavioral parts of marital enrichment. Marriage Outbacks provide much of the same experiential-based learning objectives as our Adventure programs except that it is condensed into a weekend version where couples rough it in the great outdoors. The third type of program that we offer is our romantic Marriage Getaways hosted in intimate locations around the world.
Conferences, Workshops, & Pastoral Counseling. In addition to our highly successful marital enrichment programs, we also facilitate marital education for churches, small groups, and organizations in both large conference and intimate workshop venues. In addition, we offer pastoral marriage support and pre-marital counseling on a case-by-case basis.
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:18] <music>
Laura Dugger: Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes, and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Are you looking for ways to enhance your love life, but you're not sure where to turn for help? Intimate Focus offers solutions and quality products to help you enjoy your intimate activities. Intimate-focus.com is a trusted place to begin your journey, and make sure you use the code SAVVYSAUCE at checkout to save 20%.
David and Terri Sumlin are my guests today, and they have a tremendous testimony. They're going to share their story with us now and give us fascinating insight into practical ways we can delight more in our own marriage.
Here's our chat.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, David and Terri. [00:01:18]
David Sumlin: Yes, thank you.
Terri Sumlin: Hi, we're excited to be here.
Laura Dugger: Well, let's just start with the two of you taking us back to when you met and fell in love.
David Sumlin: Terri and I met when we were at the University of North Texas back in the early 80s. We were both officers in our respective fraternities and sororities. There was a leadership retreat on campus. I was probably a first-year senior. Terri was an incoming sophomore. Never met her before, but we got assigned to the same small group together. And it was there that I was captivated, couldn't keep my eyes off her.
Remembering the icebreaker that we had was paying a compliment to one another in the group. I knew everybody in the group, didn't know Terri. Got to Terri, and I just looked at her, and I just had this kind of one of those moments where your mouth opens up and starts saying things before your brain can catch up to what you're doing.
And I just looked at her, and I said, "Those are the most gorgeous eyes I've ever seen." [00:02:19] And then I thought to myself, "Oh, my gosh, everyone in the group just heard what I said." So embarrassed, thought I'd never see her again. And it turns out God had a different story.
Terri Sumlin: But I like your question. That's how we met. But to fall in love, we both admit we probably didn't know what love was. We were both young, weren't walking with the Lord, and so we probably even through our first seven years of marriage even, it was more infatuation. It was lust. We got married out of lust and infatuation. And it wasn't until God stepped in that showed us what love was. So we probably fell in love seven years into our marriage.
David Sumlin: Yeah, yeah.
Laura Dugger: Well, I love the honesty there. So if you take us back maybe to that time early on before you were in love, what difficulties did you go through early on as a married couple?
Terri Sumlin: Well, we were young. I was married at 22, and then we had children immediately. So within our first year of marriage, we had our first child, and then 20 months later, we had our second. [00:03:20]
So it was just a struggle. We didn't have the foundation of a strong friendship because, again, we got married probably with the wrong motives. Neither one of us were walking in a personal relationship with the Lord, so we didn't have that foundation.
We were just trying to make it work by ourselves. And with a young family, David just dove headfirst into his career and felt how important it was to make money. So he devoted his life to his career and climbing that corporate ladder, where I turned to my job as a teacher and raising the children.
So our marriage was not a priority by any means. So we just started to drift apart, and we didn't have any common ground, any common bond that was keeping us together to fight for ourselves.
David Sumlin: Yeah. I would even add to that I was a consultant. I worked for a productivity company. And work, that's where I felt affirmed. I did not feel affirmed when we were together because it was always about the business of running kids and raising a family. [00:04:20] But work is where I got my accolades. That's where I felt like I had what it takes to be successful.
So I dedicated almost 100% of my time to my work. I traveled a great deal. In fact, traveled so much. There was a three-year stint where I would leave, go to the airport, catch a plane on Sunday afternoon, fly around the world, and wouldn't come back until the following Friday. So basically for a good three years I was just a weekend dad, a weekend husband. If even that, because we often fought most of Saturday.
It just got to a point where I just didn't really want to come home anymore. I've got to be in New York on Monday, so I'm just going to go ahead and stay where we were. So, yeah, that didn't help.
Laura Dugger: And I can see where a lot of couples may relate to that type of story. Sometimes it goes even further than that into more harmful or destructive choices. So with the two of you not having the Lord in your life and being married, but not turning toward one another, it sounds like you were turning toward work, David. And Terri, where were you turning? [00:05:33]
Terri Sumlin: Well, unfortunately... well, I did. I was trying to be affirmed as a mother through my children, but those emotional needs that I had were definitely not being met. And so I did. I turned to another man. So I did step out of our relationship. While David was traveling for a few months, I stepped into having an affair with a man that I was working with, thinking that he was going to fill my heart, meet all my needs, those emotional needs that David was not meeting. So, yeah, so I did. I made a very bad choice trying to seek affirmation, trying to seek acceptance, and love from somebody else since I wasn't getting it from my husband.
Laura Dugger: Thank you for even sharing that. We've heard from listeners who are walking a similar path and they find themselves here where they can't believe they're on this trajectory. But just going back, I'm thinking, again, not having the faith piece, how did you two decide to stay together after that? [00:06:33]
David Sumlin: Well, it was interesting. After Terri had confessed the affair, I went into just rage. I was just so angry with everything. It was actually my father, my estranged father, whom I didn't talk to for seven years because he divorced our family. Turns out he married his secretary and he had an affair. He came back into our lives at that moment, perhaps because my mother had called him and asked him to get over to our house because I was about to do something stupid.
My father, who became a Christian during the seven years I didn't talk to him, invited us to go to church with him. In fact, the next morning after Terri had confessed the affair on Saturday, when I went to that church service for the first time and listened to this pastor from the pulpit give this message, I'll be honest, I thought I was the only one in the sanctuary. I'm thinking to myself, "How could this pastor absolutely know how I'm feeling right now?" [00:07:32] And I wanted more of that.
So for the next couple of years, I just threw myself into knowing everything I could about Jesus. Nothing else mattered. He was my solace. He was my refuge where I would turn to, even though Terri and I were going through that time of reconciliation.
Terri Sumlin: For me, God used that storm. He used the affair. He used what David and I were going through. I'll never forget. It was one night. We had had a huge fight like we always had, and David finally broke down and he just says, "You know, I'm done. I'm done. I want a divorce. This is over. I want a divorce." And it was that night that Jesus just grabbed me because I was at one minute screaming back at David, "Good, I hate you. I want out of this marriage."
But then Jesus took hold of my heart. It's so difficult to describe this to somebody. Nothing I did, but He just took hold of my heart and he brought me to my knees. All of a sudden I'm crying. I'm shaking. [00:08:33] I can't breathe. And all of a sudden I just get on my knees and I cry out to David, "Don't leave. Don't leave. I want to make this work. Please don't leave."
It was that night that Jesus called me into a personal relationship with Him. And He knew that that had to happen because the next morning I woke up, I felt like a different person. I felt like I was free. I felt like a renewed spirit, a renewed heart, a renewed soul.
A couple of days later God used some circumstances at a camping trip that caused me to confess my affair to David. That was the moment. I never would have done that. Never would have done that if Jesus had not already accepted me and forgiven me and shown me how much He loved me and transformed my heart.
So He knew I had to be transformed first. And then from that, that's when I was able to feel safe enough to confess my affair to David and then trust God with what was going to happen from there. And that's eventually what led David to what he just described as well. [00:09:33]
David Sumlin: Yeah. And for a lot of couples who are trying to go through this season of reconciliation, while the church can certainly and is a refuge for many of those couples, Terri and I were on two separate tracks. She was pursuing her faith with God by getting involved in women's studies and prayer groups and things like that, while I had a separate track getting involved in more the care ministry side of church.
So even though we chose during those two years of reconciliation after the confession of the affair to stay in church together, we still were on two separate tracks, and rarely did those tracks ever meet up with one another.
Part of that, during that time, Terri got involved in youth ministry. So it's interesting how God used a very specific event to really bring us both to our knees. Terri's involved in youth ministry. Two years after the affair was confessed, we're still trying to heal from this, but no one in the church knew about our little dark secret. Nobody knew about the affair. [00:10:40] Nobody knew that I was still harboring bitterness and resentment and unforgiveness.
We rarely slept in the same room during those two years. We never, I think, even uttered the words, I love you. And then it happened two years after the confession, our youth group in our church is taking a ski trip to Colorado as part of a youth conference with five other churches. And the youth pastor comes up to Terri two days before the trip and says, "Terri, we've got a problem. Our adult chaperones have just backed out. Is there any way you and David could go on this trip and chaperone these high school students?" And we said, "Well, it's Christmas. We're on vacation. So yeah, we can go as long as we can bring our two little kids with us." And off we go and do the very best we can do, sleeping in the same hotel room for a week.
Fast forward, now it's time to come home. We finished the conference, finished our ski trip, and our youth pastor on the day of departure from the hotel in Crested Butte decides to make one more run down the mountain with all the students. [00:11:46] Our bus was supposed to leave the hotel at 12 o'clock in the afternoon, and we don't end up leaving until seven o'clock at night.
By this time, the 73-year-old bus driver is beside himself. He is so angry with our youth pastor because he knows he's going to miss the driver exchange in El Paso. So off we go. We're the first of five trailway buses following a snowplow through Monarch Pass, these windy roads in the mountains of Colorado.
And it's there that our bus driver, about nine o'clock at night, decides to make a bold move and pass the snowplow. The second bus behind us said, "You were going so fast we lost sight of you within seconds." As our bus is winding its way through these windy roads in the mountains, it hits the first patch of black ice, slams the bus into the side of the mountain. He brings it back under control. I'm sitting right behind the driver with my son, and Terri's right behind me with my five-year-old daughter. [00:12:41]
Terri stands up, screams at the driver, "You're going too fast, slow down." The youth pastor next to me gets up, goes to the back of the bus, because he knows what's about to happen, gets all the students to get down in the middle of the aisle. And as the bus is approaching a big wide turn in the mountain, it's there he hits the second patch of black ice, spins the bus completely backwards, and we go off the mountain at 75 miles an hour, is what the black box recorded the wheel speed.
As the bus is rolling down the mountain, rather bouncing down the mountain, ripping the roof further and further off the bus, it's depositing 55 students and six adults all down the mountain. Now, sadly enough, there were three fatalities in that accident. They flew in army helicopters to triage everyone that was alive to five different hospitals all over Colorado. And they took me to a local country hospital in Canyon City, and I'm laying on the emergency room table, head strapped to the table. [00:13:39] I didn't know what was going on. In fact, I had a severe concussion. I remember a boy, he told me, came up to me afterwards and looked at me on the mountain. Had blood all over my face, broken arms, everything. And he looks at me and he says, "Mr. Sumlin, are you okay?" And I said, "I'm not Mr. Sumlin. I'm Joshua." I had no idea who I was.
And so I'm in that state on that emergency room table. A nurse keeps coming in and asking me questions. You know, do you know where you are? Do you know your name? What happened? I don't know any of that. I know my name's David, and I kept telling her I was 18 years old. Then she brings in my son, and she says, "David, I know you can't see him, but I've got a young boy here. His name is Robin. Do you know him? We're trying to find his parents."
Now, I can't see him, but he can see me. And he just screams up, "Dad!" And it just starts coming back to me. And I asked the nurse, I said, "Where's Terri?" She goes, "I'm sorry, we don't know. [00:14:40] We don't know where. You've all been taken to five different hospitals all over Colorado."
In that moment, I began praying out loud for the very first time, "God, why did you allow this to happen?" I don't hear anything. No answer. And then all of a sudden, it feels like all my thoughts are getting interrupted. I can't hold onto a thought more than just a few seconds.
And then I start hearing this word over and over again in my head, the same word I used with Terri two years prior when I wanted a divorce. "Done. Done. David, you're done. You're done with your corporate career. You're done with the money, the possessions. David, you're done holding onto this bitterness, resentment, and unforgiveness towards Terri. You need to find Terri. You need to tell her that you forgive her for that affair and that you were in love with her."
The ironic thing about the whole thing is my whole family was triaged to that local hospital. The doctors and nurses just didn't know it. It took them two days before they could figure out who kind of belonged to who. [00:15:42] I remember them wheeling my bed into Terri's intensive care unit. By that time, all the doctors, family, they're all in the room. I didn't care. I made everybody leave. Everybody leave. Shut the door.
And I looked at my wife, who was unconscious, laying on the hospital bed. She got beat up bad. She severed her spine in several places, broke her ribs, her arms. Her head looked like a basketball, swollen, black and blue. Tubes in her nose and mouth. I didn't care. I looked at her and I said, "Terri, I don't know if you can hear me or not, but I need you to know something. I need you to know that I forgive you for that affair two years ago and I am so in love with you."
Terri remained in the hospital for four months, surgery after surgery. They didn't think she was ever going to walk again. By that time, I was an executive at Hewlett-Packard. And I remember walking in on crutches in January to my senior vice president's office. It was performance review time. [00:16:44] And he sat me down, he said, "David, I'm so sorry for what's happening in your family. Please know the companies behind you will do anything to help support you. And in terms of performance review, you can have anything you want. What do you want? Name it. You want Asia, it's yours. You want Europe, it's yours. And I just remember looking at him and saying, "You know what? I'm done. I'm done. I believe God is calling me and my wife into something that's so bigger than ourselves."
Just to walk alongside other married couples and help tilt their chin two inches up to get God's perspective of what really is important in this life. And it's an amazing thing God did. Just to give us perspective of what really is important. Because it's not the money. Not the possessions. It's not even sometimes what we think we deserve or are entitled. What's really important on this side of heaven is the person you're married to. It's the person you're living life with, the family you're living life with, and a relationship with God. [00:17:49]
It's flipped us totally upside down. That was really what we needed to change our trajectory and move us in a different direction in terms of our healing and our purpose, life purpose, for what we do now.
Laura Dugger: I am stunned by hearing the account of your story. Terri, is there anything you would also add from your side?
Terri Sumlin: As far as the story itself goes, unfortunately, from when I stood up and told the bus driver to slow down, they said I was awake and talking, but I don't have another memory until like a week later. So the details of the story, people ask me all the time, when he came in and said he forgives you and loves you, how did you react? I'm like, I hate to say that I was unconscious. I don't remember that.
But I do remember the feelings afterwards when we flew back to Houston and David was by my side and I got to see it wasn't just words. [00:18:51] I got to see his forgiveness. I got to experience his love and his new perspective and change in life.
Something so horrific... People are like, "Oh, you know, I'm so sorry that happened." And I'm like, "Yes, the events of it were horrific, but the outcome was beautiful." And if that's what it took for God to bring us to the other side of our faith, the other side of our marriage, to restore us, then you know what? I'm thankful for it. I'm thankful that he didn't give up on us. I'm thankful that He just didn't let us live in our sin and our misery. But He used something like a bus accident to bring us out of that, to renew our focus and renew our hearts.
Laura Dugger: And I'm assuming your children were okay in the accident as well.
Terri Sumlin: They were. Our son is the only one on the whole bus, did not have a scratch on him. They think he landed on top of David and bounced off of him.
Our daughter has a pretty bad laceration across her face and broke her ankle. And she still has some anxiety issues. [00:19:50] She'll be 30 next month and she still has anxiety issues and some PTSD from the event. But other than that, they're good. They're fine.
Laura Dugger: Understandable. That is like you described, such a horrific event. And yet as it so often happens, what the enemy meant for evil, God used for your good.
Terri Sumlin: Definitely.
Laura Dugger: How did he continue to do that?
Terri Sumlin: Just even the way we're living today, if you would have asked us 20 years ago, 15 years ago, that we would be doing and helping other couples in their marriages and help them see God's design for marriage, we probably would have laughed because we ourselves were so miserable. But he just used this event. He used even the affair I had to help other people understand expectations, to help other people understand...
I mean, I know the reason I had the affair is I had a void in my heart, an emptiness in my heart, and I expected my husband to fill that. [00:20:50] And when he didn't, I went and tried to find someone else who could. But God used that emptiness and that void in my heart to, again, bring me back to him. So it's really helped not only in our own marriage but for us to understand possibly what other couples are going through. I can understand loneliness. I can understand insecurity.
We understand unforgiveness, unmet expectations. We've lived so much of it that I think God is... that's why I think he's blessed our ministry, that we can walk alongside other couples and really help them with empathy, not just sympathy or not just with tools and knowledge, but with true empathy because we've been there. So He's using our misery for our ministry, as we hear all the time.
David Sumlin: Yeah, and it's interesting. I people sometimes when they ask what we do, I say, you know, in some sense we certainly are gypsies. We don't ever stay home or on the road two to three months at a time. But in another way, I would consider ourselves kind of like stormologists. [00:21:52] We study the storms of marriage and family. And what's beautiful about that, just walking alongside other couples who might be going through storms, is for those couples that kind of lean into God during those difficult life circumstances, what I've noticed and what I've come to learn over the years is that God can use the storms, certainly can use the storms of marriage, of family, not just to bring you to the other side of rest or peace or comfort.
I believe God uses the storms in our lives to bring us to the other side of our faith. There's such a beautiful picture of how Jesus does that, even in the midst of His own storm with His disciples as they're going across the Sea of Galilee. God can use those storms to help reveal His power, His presence in our lives. I tell you, if I'm in a storm, I do not want to take one step out of that storm until I've learned everything God wants me to know. [00:23:03]
Terri Sumlin: And another part of the storm part and another way that God is using our ministry, I think, to help understand others is we love what He did for us. He had to break us down. He had to totally get us to confess our sins, to look at how sinful we have been. He had to get us to that point of brokenness before He could begin to redeem and restore us, not only individually, but also our marriage.
One of our favorite scriptures we use with couples as well is in James 4:8-9. He says, "Cleanse your hands, you sinners, be miserable. Let your joy turn to mourning. Let your celebrations turn to gloom." In other words, you should be able to look at your sin. When you look at your sin, you should be so broken that you know that nothing else can get you out of where you are except for the grace of Jesus Christ. And that's where He had us. We had to get to that point of brokenness, that storm of brokenness, before He could restore us individually and our marriage. [00:24:06]
That's what we're able to tell other couples from personal experience. We counsel with a lot of couples now, and we're looking for what we call that James 4 moment. Have you had that James 4 moment? Have you had that moment of brokenness where you're truly looking at your sin with repentance? Are you accepting the grace of Jesus Christ to cover your sin? Because you have to get to that point before He can begin to restore you or your marriage or your relationship, whatever that might be.
So it's sort of our code word now. It's like, okay, have we seen the James 4 moment yet that He brought us to? Or have we not? Or is God still working in that heart? Is there still some work that He's doing?
Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.
[00:24:47] <music>
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[00:26:04] <music>
Laura Dugger: It's clear that God has restored and redeemed your lives and your marriage. But if you catch us up to present day, after that moment of leaving your corporate job, David, how did the two of you launch into marriage ministry, and what does it look like today?
David Sumlin: In those days, when I told my senior vice president I was done, we had prayed for two years about just, okay, what can God do with this? My younger brother was already in seminary at Dallas Theological Seminary, and we prayed about it. So I enrolled, went to seminary, got my master's in biblical counseling, as well as my doctorate in marriage and family ministry.
During that time, we were introduced to an opportunity at a place called JH Ranch in Northern California. It's a camp where they lead week-long retreats for parent teens, and they were just in the midst of starting a marriage tract where husband and wives could go and experience this adventure-type ministry. [00:27:16]
The chairman of the board heard our story, heard about the affair, the bus accident, and also knew that I was in seminary, and invited us to come out and lead the husband and wife program. That was, gosh, that was nearly 18 years ago. And we've been out there ever since. It's a big part of our ministry.
We just decided to... we led a life of surrender. We sold everything, you know. Back then, we had a 6,000-square-foot home on a golf course, beautiful cars, possessions. We sold everything, got rid of everything so that we could become itinerant for the Lord.
It was during that time, God was kind of building this marriage ministry, our passion for walking alongside other couples, and it just kept growing and growing and growing beyond the walls of JH Ranch into other areas. Winshape, for example, a ministry founded by Chick-fil-A, called us in to start leading some of their retreats and adventures. [00:28:20]
So it's brought us to a point now we... I guess several years ago, probably going on 10 years now, maybe decided to, you know, maybe God's calling us to start a ministry. So we founded Marriage Life Ministries, for which we now lead probably upwards of 40 to 50 events per year.
Even though we have a house here in Houston, Texas, we're here probably maybe four or five weeks a year. We are on the road constantly, two to three months at a time, ministering to a little over 10,000 marriages every 12 months. And in the midst of leading these high adventure retreats, which is kind of our specialty, we also do a whole lot of counseling with couples.
Terri Sumlin: And he mentioned high adventure. In Northern California at JH Ranch and some of the other places we do, the high adventure is high ropes courses. It's whitewater rafting. It's horseback riding. It's, you know, just anything to get you out of your comfort zone to help you lean on God and lean on each other more. [00:29:27]
David's whole dissertation, his doctorate was about the advantages of adventure-based learning in marriages. So it's not sitting in a classroom getting lecture to filling in blanks type thing. All of our retreats are incorporating some type of activity. Even if we're not at a place where we can do the high ropes courses, we're still doing low ropes, we're still doing activities where couples actually have to get out of their seats and do something to help reinforce the principles or the ideas that we're trying to teach or that scripture is telling us about.
So ours are a little different. We've been to many retreats that are very good, but they're more of a classroom setting. We want to do things differently, that you're out of your seat. You're actually doing things actively to help reinforce ideas.
Laura Dugger: There's even brain science behind that, that makes it stick.
Terri Sumlin: Definitely.
David Sumlin: Well, if I could just get a little geeky.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely.
David Sumlin: I'm a research nut. [00:30:24] It was during that period of time of healing where Terri and I... you know, Terri would say during those two years, shortly after she confessed the affair, "David, let's go to a marriage retreat. Let's get help. Let's go to a counselor." And I would try those things. We'd go to a weekend marriage conference and I would end up leaving Friday night shortly after the opening comments, because I'm like, Yeah, these people don't know what we're going through kind of thing.
So when I set out on my doctoral research, what I wanted to do is kind of entertain the question, is there a different way to bring about marital enrichment, especially for couples who are trying to heal. So for four years, I made this camp up in Northern California, JH Ranch. It was my research laboratory. I would take couples and I would strap biofeedback monitors on these couples as they were traversing these obstacle courses 50 feet up in the air kind of thing.
And I had these biofeedback monitors tethered through Bluetooth to an iPad where I'm watching, monitoring heart rates, breathing, video cameras, recording eye movement, verbal communication, body language, the whole nine yards. [00:31:40]
What I noticed is that when couples get into an escalated state, and Dr. John Gottman really kind of talks more about this, it's those times of escalation, those times of fight, flight, or freeze where we don't believe our spouse understands what we're trying to tell them. And it's in those moments where we get into an escalated state, our sympathetic nervous system kicks in, adrenaline is running through our body, and we get into that lockdown. We just cannot make sense of what's going on in our argument.
Dr. Gottman, a lot of counselors will say, well, take a timeout, which is absolutely a thing you want to do if you're in an escalated state. You want to allow the parasympathetic nervous system to kick in and reverse the process, bring you to a state of equilibrium. But a lot of counselors, Gottman included, will say, I wonder if we could in the moment equip couples with tools to help them de-escalate.
So the whole premise of my research was, what if I could teach couples how to resolve conflict in the morning and then simulate conflict in the afternoon by putting them 50 feet up in the air on these tight ropes, traversing obstacles through the canopy of the trees, strapped into harness systems. [00:32:54] And it was true.
As soon as these couples would get even strapped in with their helmet and their harness, their heart rates would start escalating. And we know that physiologically, if your heart rate is above 95 beats per minute, there's a good chance you can get into that fight, flight, or freeze mode.
So these couples, as they're in clearly an escalated state, what we noticed is couples who would employ the tools we gave them, deep breathing, long exhales, looking into each other's eyes, honey, it's okay, we're on the same team, we can do this together, I tell you what, put your hands on my shoulders, I'm here with you. Those couples, one, their heart rates came down a lot faster. The parasympathetic nervous system kicked in much sooner.
Then we would monitor their relationships. We used instruments to measure their level of marital quality or marital satisfaction before they arrived to the event. [00:33:53] Again, on the day of departure, seven days later. And then we would also measure that at intervals of three months, six months, nine months after the event.
And what we noticed is that 84% of couples who engage some kind of experiential learning opportunity in the midst of their healing, those couples, 84% of those couples, sustain the incremental improvements to their marriage well beyond the actual event, which is much different than traditional counseling, which a lot of counselors, if they're willing to be honest and admit, you know, really only about 11% of couples who go to traditional counseling will sustain the incremental benefits of the counseling intervention.
But sadly, 90% of couples could, in fact, relapse two months to two years after the counseling event and go back to the way they were. So we wanted to do something different. And it's amazing how many counselors will refer their most difficult cases to our adventure-based marital enrichment programs. [00:35:01] And it's amazing what God does through that. These couples will leave saying, this was absolutely the best part of our entire marriage, just being able to be present with God in the midst of doing something very experiential. So I love what we do.
Laura Dugger: I think that's fascinating. It makes me wonder, based on all of your research, what are some practical things that all of us can be doing in our own relationships to prioritize and delight in our marriages
Terri Sumlin: Quite a few things. We'll just sit on a few of them. One is making sure the first thing is use the word prioritize to prioritize your marriage and make it the most important relationship thing you do on this side of heaven.
Second, too, your definitely a personal walk with the Lord. But it's active dating. It's being intentional about your dating each other consistently once a week. [00:36:00] A lot of couples are like, "Once a week. I have two little kids. I can't do that, whatever." And when we say once a week, we just mean carve out a couple of hours every week to have quality time together.
It doesn't mean you have to spend a lot of money going out with a babysitter and so forth, but just at least once a week where you have quality time, where you're not talking business, finances, kids, etc., but you're doing something that's going to create a memory. Maybe it's a picnic in the backyard. Maybe it is going out to something fun. We do reinforce active dating as much as possible, just like the adventure-based learning. It's getting your heart rate up. Go bowling. Go do something fun and adventurous. Try novel ideas you've never done before. But do things that are going to create positive memories and putting those positive deposits into the neural pathways in your brain.
So definitely active dating or some type of date at least once a week where you're saying no to children, no to the busyness of the world, no to dishes, and so forth, but say yes to your marriage, where you're spending quality time.
We actually have some date cards that we've created. [00:37:01] So even if you are just going to dinner, that's fine. But we give you cards to talk about during dinner that's going to help you remember wonderful memories you've had or dream about the future or affirm each other and just really dwelling on the positive.
So our days of just going at dates and playing on our phones and staring into space, those are over. We try to be real creative and different, even the days where we're just going to dinner type thing.
David Sumlin: Yeah. Another thing I think that we really emphasize with couples we work with is how to navigate through unmet expectations. This has been a game changer for not just me and Terri, but for the couples we work with. We've created something we call an expectations inventory where you're cataloging, taking inventory of all the expectations you have of yourself as a husband, as a wife, as a father, mother, in all these different areas of your relationship, working with kids, how we communicate, how we resolve conflict, how we spend our leisure time, all those things. [00:38:00]
But taking inventory of the expectations you have yourself and the expectations you have of the other person. And then the third column of that is now list all the expectations you believe your spouse has of you. Once we get them to catalog all these expectations, then we have them go circle all the unmet expectations.
What we want to know is are those expectations realistic? If they're not, can you give yourself permission to take it off your list, take that expectation down? If it is important, but you're not meeting it, then what can we do to either negotiate that expectation to where it is realistic or how do we cope with it?
I got just a quick story. Terri and I did this. We were getting ready to celebrate our 30th anniversary and 30th anniversaries are big. And we wanted to go to... I had this dream of going to Italy and just spending two weeks in Italy. But it was during COVID, you know, the whole world shut down. [00:39:01] So we ended up going to the one place that allows anybody. And we went to Mexico. So we got a first-class all-inclusive resort in Mexico and we spent some money on it.
But I knew that two weeks before we left to go on our vacation, our anniversary trip, I knew just from previous experiences that if one of us says something or does something that falls short of the other's expectation, it certainly can ruin that day, if not the whole vacation. So I told Terri, what I want to do is I want us to go on a hike. Just go through a national... there's a national forest close by our house.
Let's go on a three-hour hike together. We're going to get our heart rates up. We know that when we do that and have a meaningful conversation, couples tend to remember those conversations much more than they would if they was just sitting in a chair.
So for the entire three hours, we hiked through this national forest. We talked through every expectation we had of that Mexico vacation or that anniversary trip. [00:39:59] Everything down to the details of what I expected Terri to wear, you know, are these nights going to be flirtatious nights or are they going to be just sitting down at a sports bar watching the national college football championship kind of thing.
And it gave us an opportunity during those three hours to say, Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I know that's your expectation, but I'm not sure that's realistic. What if we did this instead or if we kind of modified that?
What ended up happening is by the time we went to Mexico, it ended up being the best week of our entire marriage because we didn't have to deal with any unmet expectations. We knew it was important to the other person and we had already agreed.
Terri Sumlin: And we've taken that same concept and now we apply that to almost every day. So we would highly encourage couples... you know, a lot of couples say, well, we don't really have expectations. But I would challenge that. Pretty much every argument you get in with anybody is because one or both of you have not met the expectations. [00:41:00]
The other person didn't do or say or react the way you had hoped or would have expected them to. We, again, encourage couples to do this every day. If we're going to go do something, what are your expectations? Is this going to be this kind of date or is it going to be a fun date or romantic date? Okay, we're going with the kids to this event. What are your expectations?
Just really talking about realistically, are your expectations realistic? Are they not? And yeah, that has become a new vocabulary for us. Almost every day before we enter anything, we have that discussion.
Laura Dugger: There's an exciting project taking place behind the scenes right now, and I would love to invite you to participate. I will give you more details as I'm able, but for now, here's my request. Will you email me your personal story of a specific way God has clearly shown up in your life? Big or small, I want to hear an account of the way he made Himself known to you and maybe received credit for an answered prayer or a way He worked out a situation in a miraculous way or how He displayed His power in your life. [00:42:10]
There's no limit to the type of story to submit as long as it's true. So please email me your story at this email address, info@thesavvysauce.com. I can't wait to read your story. Thanks for sharing. I want to speak to parenting a little bit too, but first just to understand when you quit your job, left Texas headed to JH Ranch in California, what ages were your kids at that phase? And what did family life look like at that time?
Terri Sumlin: We actually found out about the ranch because David in the healing of our marriage, but also healing as a father, he took both of our children out there as a father child, part of JH Ranch. And that's how we were first introduced to it.
So they, at that time, when he took each of them out there, they were probably 12. So by the time we did our first retreat, I would say our son was probably 14 and our daughter was 12. [00:43:09] That was the very first retreat we ever did. So as parents, I will say when the kids were younger in the midst of our turmoil and so forth in our marriage, we were not the best parents. I was basically a single mom. So we don't have a whole lot of stories to tell. Oh, this is the perfect way to do it as, you know, raising your children.
But once we found the Lord and recognized his way and decided to put our marriage as a priority, our children were old enough to understand that. I still remember the first time I told my daughter… she wanted to go shopping at a mall for a homecoming dress, and I told her no, because I was going on a date with her dad. She was appalled. What, what? But now that was the beginning of a change. And now she can go back and say, "I'm glad I saw that towards the end of while I was at home. I saw you prioritize marriage over us."
It's really hard, especially for moms. We are that nurturer and we just want to put our children's needs before our own, before our spouses, and so forth. So that can be really hard. But our children now, so appreciate and so respect what we do and our story behind it. [00:44:16] No judgment. They're just very proud of what we do. Again, they were old enough to remember the pain of the beginning of our relationship to see the blessings of it now.
David Sumlin: Yeah. I would also say it was during that time where we're so... keep in mind, you know, Terri and I are trying to heal our marriage, but we're also being introduced to a relationship with Christ at the same time. What we wanted to do in our healing with our children is also give that to them as well. So it's teaching both our son and daughter how to have an abiding relationship with Christ, what that looks like, what it looks like to pray together.
Our world was just turned upside down after that bus accident. They're now getting into a relationship with Christ. They're learning how to be involved in the church. It's interesting. My son in fact starts this week. He's now at Dallas seminary going through his master's program there as well. So both our children are incredibly Godly and do have an abiding relationship. [00:45:19] That was the most important piece. That was most important gift we could give them even out of that storm that we went through.
Terri Sumlin: So depending on the age of your children, when they're old enough to understand, but for them to understand that mom and dad love each other, that it's secure for your children to see, you know, you loving on your spouse, kissing each other, holding hands, being affectionate.
We always say for your kids to say, "You're gross," that's a good thing. We want our kids to see that mom and dad are good, that we are affectionate with each other. We do love each other. Because we have to remember this might be the only role model your children have of what marriage looks like is what you're giving them and what they're seeing every day. So we just want to make sure that's a God-honoring relationship that they're seeing.
Laura Dugger: Well, then to kind of wrap it up, but do either of you have any specific stories to share or unique encouragement for the married couple listening or the parents who are tuning in right now? [00:46:21]
David Sumlin: Just for starters, we get to see miracles every single week as we work with these couples. One of my favorite stories, you know, we were down in West Palm Beach, Florida, doing a retreat and the waiting list for retreats can be pretty hefty. And there was this one couple that had registered, but they were on the waiting list. They were actually going through a divorce. It was a Thursday. The retreat started Friday. It was a Thursday. They were sitting up in mediation with their attorneys.
An hour away from signing divorce papers, they're at the table, they get a call. The husband gets a call from our registrar who says, "Hey, congratulations. You've cleared the waiting list. You can go to the retreat tomorrow." And he looks at his wife across the table and says, "What do you think? One more chance?" And she says, "Yeah, what do we have to lose?" [00:47:19]
They go to the retreat by the end of the week... And we met with them several times, but at the end of the week-
Terri Sumlin: Weekend. In fact, it was only two days.
David Sumlin: Yeah. They stood up in front of the entire camp, shared their story about how they were an hour away from signing divorce papers. They decided to call off the divorce, move back in together. And now they coach with us and they've been doing that for several years.
Terri Sumlin: I think to David's point, yes, God... I used to... you know, because we do week-long retreats and then we do weekends. And I'm like, really, you're going to save a marriage in a weekend? But God can do anything. And just if we're submitting to Him and allow Him to work in our hearts, He can and will save any marriage, redeem any marriage, restore, enrich. A lot of people are like, do you have to be in distress to come to a marriage retreat? And we're like, absolutely not. Come just to get enriched, just to have positive memories with each other kind of thing.
The one thing I would say as well that has really, really helped us, and it all stemmed from the bus accident, is that idea of forgiveness and grace and expectations. [00:48:23] I think many of us go into marriage with expectations of the happily ever after, you know, and I just can't wait to get married, I'm going to be happy and you're going to meet all my needs, etc. But then we get into the reality of it and there is no way we can meet each other's needs. There is no way we'll be able to live up those expectations of perfection that many of us might have, even if we don't realize it. So it's understanding grace. It's understanding none of us are perfect. We're going to fall short every day. But Jesus doesn't hold on to our sins. He doesn't hold that against us. We are called to do the same. So I think that's the thing that David and I have learned and we've seen other couples.
We do something called a Trust Fall at the end of many of our retreats, where they really have to let go of something that's been holding them back. And many of them say it's unforgiveness. And so it's just every day. We don't let arguments last more than a few minutes. They used to last for weeks at a time. Now they last a few minutes. We still get into arguments. We do. [00:49:21] A lot of them quite often, because we're working together and living together and everything else.
But we've learned, you know what, it's not worth it. This relationship is the most beautiful thing. God has restored it. He's redeemed us. Why are we going to let a misunderstanding or an unmet expectation eat away at what God has brought us together? So we've learned to live in a state of forgiveness, of grace, and dealing with unmet expectations in a much better way. When couples are able to get there, God takes their marriages beyond anything you could imagine.
Laura Dugger: That is incredible and encouraging. And I hope that it specifically encourages someone listening today. So if they're intrigued for enrichment or if they're in crisis or just want to try something different, where can they go to learn more from you two and learn about your ministry?
David Sumlin: The easiest way to do that is to go to our website, MarriageLifeMinistries.com. In that, they can learn kind of where we'll be, our schedule. [00:50:24] So we're in cities all over the country as well as around the world. That's the first place I would go.
Then we occasionally have resources we put out there where they can download those and get some more help. Or just simply call. My number is listed on the website. They can call me directly on my cell phone. And we'll be happy to point them in the right direction if we're not the ones that can help them. We certainly know a lot of people that can.
Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will link to that in the show notes for today's episode. And you two may already be aware our podcast is called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for both of you today, what is your savvy sauce?
David Sumlin: That's good. I like that. You know, it's interesting. I think our savvy sauce and keep in mind, we just celebrated our 32nd wedding anniversary. And I would say the last couple of years have been the best years of our entire marriage. And here's why. [00:51:28]
We understand that there's different forms of intimacy. There's spiritual intimacy, emotional, physical, sensual, and sexual. We have taken a concerted interest in sensual intimacy and have made it an art form. It no longer is just a kiss, a peck on the cheek. Just not recently, we came home from dinner one night and I heard this song on the radio by Alicia Keys, Fallin'. I was so intrigued with that song and downloaded it by the time we got home.
I took Terri, fully clothed, put her on top of the kitchen counter, and we kissed for an hour and a half. It was as if we were tking a blank canvas and painting a Rembrandt. You know, just taking our level of intimacy. And that's carried over in the other fields of intimacy as well, spiritual and sexual and emotional and physical as well. It's just not taking each other for granted. [00:52:29]
Terri Sumlin: I would agree with that. Mine's a little bit different. It's Gary Chapman, love, his five languages of love and physical touch. So many people would associate that, oh, that's a man's thing and physical touch because men are, you know, sexually driven. But I have found in the last few years, my love language has turned into physical touch, non-sexual physical touch.
That's my savvy sauce for David just to be... when he's intentional about touching me, giving me a back rub, putting his hand on my leg, giving me a hug. When we're praying together, he's always touching the small of my back. We know the science behind it as well. There's so much science about the power of physical touch. For me, if there's tension between us, all I need is a hug, and it just melts.
In fact, David gets on to me because we go to restaurants or something, and I'll see couples that are very affectionate with each other, and they're touching each other a lot, non-sexually. And I always have to mention it on our way out. I'll go up to the couple, and I'll say something to them. And David gets so embarrassed. He's like, "You're stalking them." And I'm like, "No, it's beautiful." Because I know to me, that's my savvy sauce, is the power of non-sexual affectionate physical touch. [00:53:33] And it's something that's so easy to do. It doesn't take a lot of effort, but it's so powerful. So that's my opinion.
Laura Dugger: Great. And it's free.
Terri Sumlin: Yes, exactly. It's free, for sure.
Laura Dugger: Well, it is invigorating to get to spend time with such a happily married couple. I'm leaving this chat feeling energized and really excited for date night tonight with my own husband, so I'll get to share with him all that I've learned from the two of you. But thank you so much for so many things, for staying the course and fiercely loving one another and loving our Lord. And thank you for being my guest today.
David Sumlin: Yeah, it was a very nice meeting you.
Terri Sumlin: Our pleasure. Thank you so much for having us. So enjoyed it.
Laura Dugger: Ever since launching this podcast in 2018, our team has tried to release at least one episode every Monday morning. In addition, we also launched a secret bonus episode for paying patrons on the first of every month. But we're changing things up a bit. [00:54:33]
We will continue to release the bonus episode for paying patrons, but on those weeks, when it's the first of the month, that will be the only episode going live, which means next week on Monday, there will not be a brand new episode available for the general public.
If you've benefited from any messages on The Savvy Sauce, we would encourage you to support our work through joining Patreon. You can go to thesavvysauce.com, click on the Patreon tab, click "Join Patreon here", and then follow the prompts so that you can have access to all these bonus episodes and downloadable scripture cards. We hope you join us there. Otherwise, we'll see you back here in two weeks.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. [00:55:34] Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. [00:56:38]
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. [00:57:45] I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
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