Jonah 2:8 "Those who cling to worthless idols forfeit the grace that could be theirs."

**Transcription Below**

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

Will you teach us Attachment theory?
How can each of us work to move more towards secure attachment?
How can we best set our children up to be securely attached?

Thank You to Our Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank

Jason VanRuler is the author of Get Past Your Past: How Facing Your Broken Places Leads to True Connection. He began his career in 2011 and has worked with many populations over the years, ranging from persons who are incarcerated to top CEOs, performers and artists, and just about everyone in between. Jason has extensive experience as a clinician, coach, and speaker and operates a multistate private practice. In 2018, Jason joined Bethesda Workshops in Nashville, TN, where he serves as a group leader and facilitator. Jason is known for his ability to relate and connect with his clients and offer hope to those who have felt hopeless. He has an engaged and rapidly growing online audience for his insightful, short videos sharing practical tips for psychological care, self-help, and healthy relationships.

Jason enjoys spending time with his wife and three children playing games and traveling. In his spare time, Jason enjoys cycling, running, music, fly fishing, and all things personal development related.

https://www.jasonvr.com/

https://www.instagram.com/jason.vanruler/

https://www.youtube.com/c/Jasonvrcounselor

https://www.tiktok.com/@jason.vanruler

https://www.amazon.com/Get-Past-Your-Facing-Connection/dp/0310367417

Other Episodes Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce:

97 Guiding Our Children Through Their Emotions with Julie Roth

Patreon 18 Shame's Journey to Freedom with Julie Roth

Connect with The Savvy Sauce on Facebook or Instagram or Our Website

Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

[00:00:18] <music>

Laura Dugger: Thank you to an anonymous donor to Midwest Food Bank, who paid the sponsorship fee in hopes of spreading awareness. Learn more about this amazing nonprofit organization at MidwestFoodBank.org.

Jason VanRuler is my guest today. He is a therapist, speaker, and author. His book is entitled, Get Past Your Past: How Facing Your Broken Places Leads to True Connection. Jason's going to go first, and he's going to share his story now, as well as relationship advice and wisdom for parents and married couples.

Here's our chat.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jason.

Jason VanRuler: Thank you so much for having me, Laura. I've been looking forward to this.

Laura Dugger: Same here. Will you begin our time together by telling us about your personal journey, beginning with growing up in a challenging environment, and then how that led you to become a licensed therapist and now author? [00:01:27]

Jason VanRuler: Yeah. Well, I think my story is unique to me, but in some ways, one that is increasingly common, probably shared by a lot. But I grew up in a home that was pretty idyllic. Just all the things were there that you would want to be there as a kid.

Seemingly, it was just going to be the childhood that a kid would dream of. And then at age eight, my parents divorced. It was a very surprising divorce to me. I was eight, so I'm not sure how much clarity I really had about anything anyway.

But they divorced, and I went from having this kind of idyllic childhood to a very volatile, chaotic one. When my parents divorced, what basically happened is it kind of thrust us into this place of struggling with some poverty, moving a lot. We lived in probably 20 houses throughout my childhood since age 8 to age 18. So we moved a ton. There was just a lot of addiction and trauma, abuse.

So it kind of went from having what you might suspect as being a really wonderful childhood to having this significant break and then shifting to something quite the opposite. [00:02:33] For me, obviously, that was really difficult, and I really struggled with that.

I did the thing that people do when they exit a difficult childhood, and they just say, well, I'm never going to do that. Right. That'll never be me. I'm going to live so much differently. And so I kind of declared that from the rooftops as I graduated and I'm going to move out and do all this stuff.

Unfortunately, I just kind of recreated the same system. And I think the reason for that is I didn't know how to do it differently. I knew in my heart that I wanted things to change, but I wasn't sure how. I ended up just replicating the system.

Within a couple of years, I'd gone to college, dropped out of college, was now struggling financially, really, because I was making a lot of poor decisions and drinking and using drugs and just doing all the things that I had said I would never do.

That's when I had the realization that I talk about in the book: Either your life is going to be pretty predictable if you keep doing this or it's going to change. [00:03:35] That kind of led me down the path of improvement in wanting to become a therapist.

But I will tell you, Laura, I always wanted to be a therapist, actually, if you can believe that. It was probably obvious that I was going to be a therapist because at age eight, I was already journaling. So I don't know many 8-year-olds that are journaling. But I actually have the journal at home.

At age eight, I journaled that I wanted to be a therapist. I wanted to write a book. I wanted to kind of do all the things I was doing today. And I think some of that was because I have always dressed like a therapist. So I was wearing my corduroys and my sweater and I was dressed like a 60-year-old man. And I just had decided I'm going to be a therapist.

And so I think I had clarity, but life was complicated. It took me a long time to get to the place I wanted to go because some things got in the way.

Laura Dugger: Wow, that is such a helpful recap. Along this journey, when was it that you met and surrendered your life to Jesus? [00:04:37]

Jason VanRuler: Yeah, well, you know, really a couple of times. So when my parents were married, I grew up in the church and that was part of my life. Then after they split, that became something that was really hit or miss.

So occasionally we'd go to church and we might go to different churches. So there was not a lot of stability there.

As I made my declaration about being different and changing everything, I really had this kind of fight with God. I had this wrestling match where I just couldn't quite fathom how I could have something so good that could switch to something so bad and God could still have some role in that. So for a long time, I really wrestled with that.

I would say that even though I had been baptized as a child, I was baptized in the Missouri River shortly after I got married. That, for me, is really when I look at my faith expanding and being the kind of faith that I would want as an adult.

Laura Dugger: Wow, that's incredible. Now as an adult, if you fast forward and catch us up to just a snapshot of today? Can you update us on your family? [00:05:45]

Jason VanRuler: Yeah. I met my wife, we got married, and we both had talked about having kids and that was important to us. I talk more about this in the book, but we had a lot of problems having kids. In fact, we're told we couldn't and so had tried to adopt and that didn't work. Eventually, by God's grace, we had kids. We did the thing they said we couldn't do.

So now I've got three kiddos, a son who's 13 and a daughter that's 10, and another son who is 8. And so married now, this year will be 17 years with three kids.

Laura Dugger: I love it. I also just love how God surprised you with leading you into a career where you work so often with married couples. Attachment is a huge piece of any relationship. So will you teach us attachment theory?

Jason VanRuler: Yeah, absolutely. Attachment theory is something that's really helpful for a lot of people because I think what we're looking to try to do is to better understand the patterns and themes in our relationship. [00:06:51] And so attachment theory is a great way to do that.

It is not a new theory. It's something a lot of people are talking about now, but it's actually been around for a long time. And it was really founded by this guy. His name was John Bowlby. Basically what he based attachment theory on is that we have these initial relationships with our parents and our caregivers. And so that relationship that we have really determines the relationship and attachment style that we have going forward.

If you can think about this, when we have a relationship with a parent, we're essentially dependent on them, right? If a parent refuses to care for a baby, they will die, right? They absolutely need that. And so that relationship is critical.

And from that relationship, we learn ways to operate in the world. A lot of that initial relationship will determine our future relationship. So that's what they talked about with attachment theory.

Bowlby did some experiments that were pretty famous, where he would have a child in a room and the mother would be in the room with the child. Then the mother would leave the room and they would look to see what the baby would do. [00:07:59]

If the baby screamed and cried and was just inconsolable and very upset, they would often feel like that was an anxious attachment style. The anxious attachment style is the perception that relationships are insecure, meaning you're always at risk of losing them. And so they are deeply afraid of being abandoned. So that baby would respond as though mom has left and I'm abandoned and now I'm alone. That was one of the styles as they did this research.

Another style was the mother would leave and the baby would just be okay. The baby would actually, when the mom came back, not even try to connect. It just didn't have a great attachment to the mother. Period.

This would be called avoidant or dismissive. This attachment style is essentially someone who does not want to depend on others or to have others depend on them. And they don't seek all that support and approval that an anxiously attached person would seek. [00:09:02]

The third style is disorganized. Some people call this a fearful avoidant too. But this one is mixed results, right? This often comes from having a parent that's inconsistent or at times is hurtful. So it's a person who deeply wants to have connection, but is also deeply afraid of having that connection. At times they might be anxious, at times they might be avoidant, but it's kind of a mixed style.

Then the style that everybody wants, Laura, is secure attachment. That's what we're all really going for, right? Secure attachment was when the child was okay when mom was there and okay when mom wasn't there and could be in relationship when there was an opportunity and not when there wasn't. Basically, it's the ability to regulate ourselves well.

Secure attachment is something that people want because it allows us to have some more objectivity in relationship, probably a healthier perspective about relationships than we do if we have the avoidant or the anxious or the fearful because those other ones are driven by a need that wasn't met. [00:10:06]

Laura Dugger: Okay. That is such a good flyover. Now just a few follow-up questions. As we progress and even get married and have our own families, typically differing attachment styles are attracted to one another. Would you agree with that?

Jason VanRuler: Yeah. I mean, I think God's really funny that way. It's sort of this, this idea of we often end up with someone who is either opposite or operates in a place that is kind of challenging for us but is very intriguing initially.

Laura Dugger: Can you give some examples of how that plays out specifically in a married couple?

Jason VanRuler: Yeah. I think probably the most talked about pairing of attachment styles would be the anxious and the avoidance. And so what this is, is... sometimes called the pursuer and the distancer.

So the anxiously attached person is always chasing and seeking that connection.[00:11:09] Because they're kind of fundamental question of the anxiously attached is, Am I okay? Are we okay? The question for an avoidance is, are we getting too close? So when they feel like we're getting too close, they put distance.

So what we can end up having is a relationship style where one person is chasing the other for connection and the other is running away from it. That can be really stressful. It can be really challenging because we both need two very different things. Unless we're intentional about trying to meet in the middle, we can unfortunately have a cycle that just repeats itself.

Laura Dugger: Even as you say that, I think of friendships as well. Do you see this attachment style playing out really in all of our relationships as adults?

Jason VanRuler: Yeah, absolutely. And it's something that I think if we understand we can work around, but if we don't, unfortunately, it can kind of run our life. I know, and I've talked about this, I'm anxiously attached. [00:12:11] Prior to doing a lot of personal work, I was just kind of always wondering if I was okay. I might've even said, "Hey Laura, how is this going? Am I doing all right in this interview? Do you think it's fine?"

That just started to come out all over the place. And that's how that works if we don't know or we don't have intention about where we're at. It is something we see in friendships, we see in work relationships. We see it all over the place.

Again, it's just a thing that if we understand, we can begin to work towards secure attachment or having that stability and ability to regulate our emotions and kind of show up knowing we're okay and being comfortable with connection. But that does take some work if we're not coming into our life with secure attachment.

Laura Dugger: Let's take a quick break to hear a message from our sponsor.

Sponsor: Midwest Food Bank exists to provide industry-leading food relief to those in need while feeding them spiritually. They are a food charity with a desire to demonstrate God's love by providing help to those in need. [00:13:14]

Unlike other parts of the world, where there's not enough food in America, the resources actually do exist. That's why food pantries and food banks like Midwest Food Bank are so important. The goods that they deliver to their agency partners help to supplement the food supply for families and individuals across our country, aiding those whose resources are beyond stretched.

Midwest Food Bank also supports people globally through their locations in Haiti and East Africa, which are some of the areas hardest hit by hunger arising from poverty. This ministry reaches millions of people every year.

And thanks to the Lord's provision, 99% of every donation goes directly toward providing food to people in need. The remaining 1% of income is used for fundraising, costs of leadership, oversight, and other administrative expenses.

Donations, volunteers, and prayers are always appreciated for Midwest Food Bank.

To learn more, visit midwestfoodbank.org or listen to Episode 83 of The Savvy Sauce, where the founder, David Kieser shares miracles of God that he's witnessed through this nonprofit organization. [00:14:27] I hope you check them out today.

Laura Dugger: How can each of us specifically work to move more towards secure attachment?

Jason VanRuler: Yeah, well, the easiest way that people would recommend is find someone who has a secure attachment style and just be their best friend or marry them. That's the short answer. Because what research has told us is that we change by being around that secure attachment style.

And you might even notice this. If you're anxiously attached and you have a friend or your partner is securely attached, they will in a lot of ways help you to regulate what you're feeling because they don't experience that same feeling, right? And so they just bring that calming effect.

The other part is just learning about it. There's a great book called Attached and it's by Amir Levine. It talks about ways that we can actually develop a more secure attachment style. So I think either being around securely attached people or learning about the hallmarks of those and trying to change your behavior are both ways we can get there. [00:15:27]

Laura Dugger: Anybody who has a personal relationship with Jesus, obviously he is the most securely attached. And I think there is so much healing there when we are deepening and establishing our relationship with Him, because we can experience that unconditional positive regard and unconditional love.

Jason VanRuler: Yeah. I think if you're a faith person like I am, like you are, I think that's our superpower actually is that we have that already. That's just something that is with us today.

Even if we're in a place where we're like, yeah, very anxiously attached, we just know a very easy place to go where we're going to have that connection that we really desire. So, yes, absolutely. That's a great place to start for people is you don't even have to go outside of your home. Just going even to prayer and having that connection or relationship is a great model for the one we're trying to build.

Laura Dugger: There's a sense of urgency that I feel as a parent too, because attachment follows us throughout our lives. [00:16:31] You said it well. On page 85, you wrote, "I have a good friend who says we are all just reacting to or reflecting our childhoods." So, Jason, how can we best set up our children to be securely attached?

Jason VanRuler: That's a great question. I think it's knowing our own attachment and knowing what we bring in to that relationship with our children and being honest about that and working on it as needed. So I think where we get into a lot of trouble is just not having the awareness or insight about who we are and what we bring into that.

Because the truth is none of us are going to be perfect parents. I mean, I would like to, and certainly that would be a goal of mine if it were possible, but it's not. I think how we can best do that for our kids is just to be honest about how it is. Even just kind of saying like, yeah, this is a place I kind of struggle. What book could I read? Who can I talk to? How do I get better at this? [00:17:31]

The other thing that I tell people is if you're coming into this as a parent and you say, you know, "I know I've got some woundedness in my past. I know I've got some struggles. I'm aware of that," and so it's not going to be natural or intuitive for me to know what to do as a parent, get some role models.

I will say my parenting has completely changed the more I've allowed role models to be in my life. And what I mean by that is those are people who I literally go to and say like, "Hey, here's a thing that's going on with my kiddos and this is what I would do. What would you do?" And just learning from people who have a different attachment style, who are more securely attached, who have done it before have that perspective, that is a great teacher for how to do it in your own life.

Laura Dugger: I think it's always helpful to hear practical examples like that. That is something that seems doable. I'm just curious, with this attachment with our children, is that typically more on them or more on us as the parents to whether or not they form a secure attachment? [00:18:35]

Jason VanRuler: That's a great question. What research tells us is it typically lands more on the parents, although we both have a role in that. The way as a parent that we really want to just reinforce that is being that parent that is available, being the parent that is consistent and stable. When we're able to do that, that lends itself to child having secure attachment.

Now, certainly, perception can affect things, but if we are coming in as our stable self and consistent with our kiddos, they are far more likely to have a secure attachment style.

Laura Dugger: Okay. And then also, just thinking of when I was a brand new mom, sometimes I would take that to mean, Okay, I can never leave them if I want them to have a long-term secure attachment. But I don't think that's what you're saying. So will you elaborate more, even on the do's and don'ts that help with secure attachment? [00:19:34]

Jason VanRuler: That is what I mean, Laura. You can never leave no vacations ever. You have to stay put forever. I know we feel that way because it is so important. I think so many of us now, we just want to do it better. And we want it to be healthy and we want to do all the right things. That's great.

Something I say often is the opposite, though, of one extreme is another, right? We don't want to kind of fly from not having inside awareness and just operating out of reaction to then being completely rigid and doing nothing.

So really the thing is, is that, yeah, absolutely you can take vacation. You can do things like that. I think the piece that's actually vital is communication. Are we communicating what is happening to our kids and why? Obviously, that's going to be different, dependent on the age because some things are more age-appropriate than others. But are we really communicating what's happening?

And then when we are present, are we really present? I think sometimes people worry about leaving their kids and saying, "Well, I'm going to be gone from them. How does that impact them?" [00:20:40] But they're not even present when they're with them.

So I think being present when you're with your kids is really, really important. I think if you take vacations and do things like that, it just matters that you communicate what's happening.

Laura Dugger: I feel like that's a message of grace. And we cannot, I know I cannot hear that enough. It makes me reflect back. One of my sweet friends is Julie Roth, and she's actually a counselor as well. She's been on The Savvy Sauce, so I can link some of her previous episodes.

But she also talked about there are times, like you're saying, if we are communicating with our children, but if we take breaks or we go on date night or we go to work or different things, when we come back and re-enter and are present, like you said, that can even strengthen the attachment. They feel more secure knowing it's okay to be apart and then it's okay to come back together.

Jason VanRuler: Absolutely, yeah.

Laura Dugger: Would you elaborate on any thoughts on that? [00:21:42]

Jason VanRuler: Yeah, well, exactly. You're just talking about how we model that attachment, right, is that you're okay when I'm here and you're okay when I'm not, and I'll return and you'll know what's going to happen.

A lot of times where the biggest challenges are and where those attachments are really challenging, the things that lead us to places like being anxiously attached or avoidantly or things like that are when we don't know what's going to happen. And so we're left to fill in the blanks.

The problem for kids is that kids have a really limited ability to fill in the blanks with different options. So most of their options are going to be revolving around something that they did or didn't do. That's why it's our job as parents to explain where we're coming from, why we're doing what we're doing, and make sure that they're understanding that we're not going on date night because we don't love you and we want to get away from you. We're going on date night to honor our marriage and we'll return. And so just kind of doing that communication with kids is the thing that really helps them to understand that. [00:22:44]

Laura Dugger: One other piece to follow this further with the parent-child relationship. I think that repair is a huge part here as well. And so do you see secure attachment being also formed when we ask forgiveness from our children and train them how to say they are sorry and ask for forgiveness from us as well?

Jason VanRuler: Definitely. We are really role modeling for them the relationships that they will have for the rest of their life or have to fight against. And so it doesn't have to be perfect. In fact, it shouldn't be and it couldn't be because they are not going to find a perfect relationship in this world.

The ability to really face a mistake or face a disconnect and repair is a skill not a lot of kids get. A lot of times they don't see that done. So having secure attachment is not about being perfect, but it's about knowing how to resolve it when it's not. [00:23:44]

So the goal for us is just to say like, yep, that thing happened. I want to own it and I want to demonstrate what it looks like to actually repair from this because that is a vital skill not only for kids, but even adults. I mean, so often I work with clients who just say, I was never taught how to do this. And it's really, really important.

Laura Dugger: I want to take a moment to say thank you. You are the reason our team gets to delight in this work and we appreciate each of you so very much. If you're benefiting from the lessons learned and applied from The Savvy Sauce, would you take a minute to rate and review us on Apple Podcasts?

Five-star ratings and reviews help us reach more people around the globe and that promotes our goal of sharing joy. So join us in that endeavor with your valuable feedback. Thanks again for being here with us.

Well, you tell so many stories throughout your book. Would you share a couple of your favorites, including some of the lessons that they taught you? [00:24:45]

Jason VanRuler: Absolutely. I think one of my favorite stories is probably when I'm talking about the experience with my dad where we're tubing. I think that was just a fun story for me.

He took us out and we skipped school, like very irresponsible kids, to go boating with my dad. And I didn't often get a lot of time with my dad, so it was just kind of inherently a big deal. And then I think we drank soda. We did all the things that you're not supposed to do that we did.

And on that trip, he took us tubing behind a boat. As we were doing that, we each were thrown off. I've got a brother and he was thrown off pretty quickly and I wasn't long after, which thanks, Dad, I think that's why I still go to the chiropractor today.

But he had this friend that he was on the tube and my dad pulled him with a boat and just increasingly tried to get the friend to fall off the tube, which is kind of what you do, kind of a fun thing. Everyone's laughing. And he just couldn't. [00:25:43] The friend would be kind of jostled around and thrown and would just keep hanging on and hanging on and hanging on.

Eventually what happened is that it kind of went from this joking thing to like, Hey, I wonder if I can really get him to fly off. And my dad did. It was quite the scene. I talk in the book about I think my Snickers bar was like flying out of the boat. It was just, you know, this madness. The friend flew off and went to get back in the boat and was actually missing a tooth.

You know, we were all kind of laughing about it, but then it took this kind of serious turn because, boy, that cost him something. And I was just really caught up in, "Why didn't you just let go? Why did I let go? My brother let go. You could have done that so much earlier." And he just had said, like, "It just seemed easier to hang on."

I think for me that has stood out throughout my entire life is just this idea of like the open hand, closed hand. Like sometimes it does seem easier to hang on to things we shouldn't than to open our hand and let it go. [00:26:49]

Laura Dugger: Also, will you unpack a lesson that you learned about a news story that popped up, I think it was maybe five or six years ago, but really stuck with you?

Jason VanRuler: Yeah. There was this family and they went to a market and they were going to buy what they thought was a puppy. So they were in Asia. I've never bought a puppy from a market. I'm not sure that I'd recommend it, but they did.

They were just certain that they had bought this puppy and they went home and they began to feed it and do all the things that you do with a puppy. But it didn't take very long before the puppy started to actually consume quite a bit of food and got to be pretty big. And so they're like, "Well, this could just be like a really big version of this dog. We don't know a whole lot about it because we got it at a market. So let's just feed it more and feed it more."

And what happened over time is it started to just eat like this ridiculous amount of food. It was like, This puppy is like... you're not going to go to college because we have to feed the dog. And it's getting bigger and bigger and bigger. Until finally the family says, "Something is really wrong here. Either we've got the biggest dog in the world or it's not a dog. I don't know." [00:27:58]

So they took it to a vet and they just said, "Hey, here's the thing. We bought this puppy..." and they explained the whole story. And the vet says, "Yeah, well, this is actually an endangered Asiatic bear." So the family had thought they had a puppy, they'd been raising this puppy, and what they were really raising was a bear that was actually pretty dangerous to have at the house.

Laura Dugger: That story just floored me. I'd never heard it before reading your book. But I also loved your takeaways. Can you share the lesson learned for you?

Jason VanRuler: Yeah. We have to be curious. We have to be curious. And not being curious can be really dangerous. Because just doing the thing to do the thing sometimes means that we're growing something that could hurt us. Along the way, we have to ask some questions.

What was interesting to me about the news story was that it had talked about the family really wondering more than once before they ever said anything what was happening and just not doing anything about that. [00:29:08] I think if we're not careful, we do that in our own life, right? We do that thing where our gut is telling us or maybe we're in prayer and we're hearing God say to us, something is not right or something needs to be questioned. And for whatever reason, we just don't. We just don't. We just keep doing more of the same because it seems comfortable and it's what we know.

But the challenge is sometimes it takes us a year or two before we realize we've raised the bear. And then when we raise the bear, we have a whole new set of problems that we never anticipated because it's not what we were trying to do.

Laura Dugger: That is so relatable. Thank you for sharing. We did talk about parenting, and you have so much background working with married couples and studying attachment theory. As we go back to thinking of the secure attachment within marriage, are there any practical tips you recommend for couples to start turning toward one another in a healthy, securely attached way? [00:30:09]

Jason VanRuler: Yeah. We have to understand really what makes us tick as well as what makes our partner tick. What I mean by that is we all have different core needs. We have different attachment styles. We have different things that matter. We have our love languages as an example. We have our primal question. We have all these things that are specific to us.

The best, healthiest couples know the other person. They know what they need, and they give that to them. And so what we really want to do to have a secure relationship is to understand well who our person is and what they need from us, and then do our best to meet them there.

Where we get really off track is when we don't have insight or awareness about that, we're not curious, and we simply try to give them the things that are important to us.

So for me, it's really interesting being anxiously attached and working through that, I needed to know that I was okay. That was something I sought after quite a bit.

Early in our marriage, I would chase after my wife and tell her she was okay. [00:31:13] All the time. I would be like, "You're great." And I would tell her all the things I wished that I could hear. And it didn't work. And I was very frustrated because I'm like, I'm doing literally all the things. Why does this not work for you?

The reason was is she was more on the secure attachment than I was. So she's like, "I actually don't need to hear that. That's not super important to me. That's nice, but it doesn't carry the weight for me that it does for you."

So I think the best, healthiest relationships are not the ones where we're perfect, but the ones where we understand what matters to the other person and we try to meet them there, rather than simply trying to give them what's important to us.

Laura Dugger: Well, you have so much knowledge around psychology and relationships. For anyone who won't get to experience going to school for a counseling degree, will you just share a handful of other useful bits of wisdom you've gained?

Jason VanRuler: Well, it's been a process. [00:32:13] One of the, I think to me, the greatest benefits of becoming a therapist or counselor is that I've gotten to do these things for myself. And I've gotten to learn along the way.

I think some things that I've learned is just that we are all still a work in progress, no matter what. No matter if you've been a therapist for 20 years, or... we're all still working on things. And actually, that's okay. That is totally okay to be doing that.

I think I've also learned, too, that there's a lot of beauty in the difficult spaces. I think we run from the messiness a lot of times. But the truth is, at least in my experience, a lot of times the clients that I work with, God is so present in that space. That is just where God shows up in major ways is in that messy place where we think we're going to be all alone. And so getting to see that has just been such a wonderful thing.

I think also doing what I do has taught me that it's really okay to ask for help. [00:33:12] I'm a great Midwestern guy and so that's not how I was raised is to do that. But doing that is how we get through it, and seeking community who's willing to help, that we can also help in return. That is truly where growth and where health and connection come from.

Laura Dugger: Well, Jason, I know you have a lot more to share. So where can we go after this conversation to learn more from you?

Jason VanRuler: I've got a website. It's jasonvr.com. On that website, you'll find some free resources about relationships. There's actually a course about attachment and some other books that can be read, as well as access to my book.

Then if you're looking for just day-to-day, brief relationship tips, you can go to Instagram. And it's jason.vanruler at Instagram, where I post daily, if not twice daily, about just quick relationship tips and tools, as well as sometimes parenting stuff and dating and all that good stuff. [00:34:14] Because my goal really is just to help people and to get the information in their hands. And so that would be another way that you could find me.

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will add all of those links in the show notes for today's episode. You may already be aware, we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge. And so as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

Jason VanRuler: I think for me, you know, I get asked a lot, "How did you do these things? How did you get here?" And I think it really is very simple. In fact, a little too simple. But we ask somebody that knows, and then we do the next right thing. That's it. You just take that next step.

I think for someone like me, who's been, you know, an overthinker my whole life, that sounds very complicated, right? It's like it has to be a trick there. But the truth of the matter is, it is pretty simple. You just take the next step. And when we do that it leads to wonderful places. [00:35:16]

Laura Dugger: Jason, your field of work is not always an easy one to navigate, but it is meaningful and purposeful. So thank you for walking alongside so many people and sharing your insights with us, both through your book and now this conversation. I just want to say thank you for being my guest.

Jason VanRuler: Well, I appreciate it. I've loved our conversation today, and it is truly an honor and privilege to get to do the work I do.

Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.

This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior. [00:36:21]

But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.

Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.

Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. [00:37:21] Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.

If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.

Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you. [00:38:23]

We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce

Practical chats for intentional living

A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.

They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!