230. Intentional Parenting in All Stages with Dr. Rob Rienow
**Transcription Below**
Matthew 18:3 (NIV) "And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
Questions and Topics We Discuss:
As our children grow up, what wisdom can you share for both participating in and refraining from sports in childhood?
Do you have any counsel for us as we navigate the teen years, especially as it relates to technology and friendships or relationships?
If we do find ourselves in a child-centered family today, what are a few practical steps to move us in the direction of God's actual vision for our family and our marriage?
Dr. Rob Rienow married Amy in 1994 and they have been blessed with 7 children. His most important ministry is loving his wife and leading his children to know God and love Him. Rob’s mom came to Christ shortly after he was born so he was blessed to be introduced to Jesus at an early age. His parents divorced when he was in high school and God used that painful time in his life to give him a heart for young people and families going through dark times. He attended Wheaton College, then completed an MA in theology at Wheaton College Graduate School, an MDiv from Trinity International Divinity School, and a Doctor of Ministry in Christian Leadership from Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary.
Rob’s life dramatically changed in 2004. God brought him to a place of deep repentance over the fact that he was disciplining other people’s children, but not his own. He was a spiritual leader at church, but passive with his family. Through that time of repentance, God turned his heart to the ministry of his children and his wife. God then led He and Amy to launch Visionary Family Ministries, a ministry designed to inspire parents and grandparents to disciple their children, to help couples create mission driven-marriages, and equip churches to build Bible-driven ministries. Their mission is to build the church through a global reformation of family discipleship.
He shares the biblical message of family discipleship at national and international conferences for parents, couples, and church leaders. He partners and consults with numerous churches, encouraging them to accelerate evangelism and discipleship through families.
Continue Learning from Dr. Rob Rienow:
Books and Resources by Dr. Rob Rienow
Other Episodes on The Savvy Sauce with Dr. Rob Rienow:
87 Visionary Parenting and Grand-Parenting with Dr. Rob Rienow
Special Patreon Release: Discipline that Disciples with Dr. Rob Rienow
Other Episode Recommended from The Savvy Sauce:
228 Stewarding Technology for More Intentional Relationships with Joey Odom
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:17] <music>
Laura Dugger: My guest, Dr. Rob Rienow, is returning to share wisdom, encouragement, and stories to help us lead our families with intention. He is such a fantastic guest that this is actually his third time back.
But before I get to his introduction, I want to share an update. A couple weeks ago, Joey Odom was my guest, and he was also sharing practical and intentional ways to parent, that time specifically related to technology. So I sure hope you don't miss that episode either.
Joey followed up to say, if our guests use the code Savvy at checkout for their own Aro Box at GoAro.com, then they're going to get one month off a prepaid annual membership or two months off a two-year membership. So I'll make sure and add all of those links in the show notes. But I just wanted to share my personal update with you on that. [00:01:18]
So as soon as I had heard about Aro, I instantly reached out to Joey to invite him to be my guest, even though we didn't own an Aro Box at that time. But after we recorded that episode, our Aro Box arrived and we put it to immediate use.
I have to say, we also reached immediate benefits. I was so excited that I had to share, because our hope for this podcast is to share joy. And we pray everyone listening applies the lessons that they've learned, so we can all experience a more abundant life, both now and forever more.
This usually comes through applying small changes after inspiration from our guests. So my application from that episode was to get an Aro Box and try it out. My husband and I have delighted in putting our phones in the Aro Box, and it's prompted some great conversation with our daughters already.
I thought that we had been pretty disciplined to keep our phones away when we were in the presence of others, but this actually revealed the gap between my perception and our reality. [00:02:27] Having our phones physically away immediately made me feel more focused and less distracted.
For those 15 minutes, the first time I used it, it was a time when our food had 15 minutes left in the oven. So rather than sending an email to our daughter's teacher or adding groceries to our online list, which are both things I had the urge to do during that time, I instead engaged with our daughter, Isla, in a game of keepy-uppy with a balloon in our kitchen. It was so fun, and it turned out to be the most memorable part of my day.
So let me know your thoughts and your experience as well, whether it's with your own Aro Box or with any other takeaway from The Savvy Sauce that you've applied in your own life. I would love to get the opportunity to someday share your stories on this podcast.
And now back to today. I found it so energizing to learn from Dr. Rob as he shared parenting wisdom and even his most influential keystone habit that positively impacted his family life. [00:03:35] It is a universal concept that would seemingly benefit every one of us listening, so make sure you don't miss this recommendation.
Here's our chat.
Welcome back to the Savvy Sauce, Rob.
Dr. Rob Rienow: Thank you, Laura. I've been looking forward to reconnecting with you.
Laura Dugger: Will you just start us off by sharing why intentional parenting and grandparenting is so important to you?
Dr. Rob Rienow: Absolutely. I'm glad you mentioned grandparenting because we are in that world now. Our daughter, Lissy, just had her second child, a Christmas baby. His name is Ernest, and so he's just two, three months old now. And their daughter, Avie, is coming up on two this summer.
As I shared with you before, we've been blessed with seven kids, ages 26 down to 10. So this question of intentional parenting and grandparenting is really at the heart of our passion and calling. But it wasn't always that way. [00:04:38]
The first 10 years of Amy's and my married life, I was a youth pastor, and as a youth pastor, I was just completely focused on other people's kids. I was doing discipleship with other people's kids and praying with other people's kids and responding to crises in the lives of other families. And it was a great season of ministry, but I was neglecting my family. I was neglecting my children, especially spiritually.
I was not praying with my kids, was not reading the Bible with my kids, was not spiritually connected with Amy. I was very intentional at church and very intentional with other people's children, but not with mine. So that was the summer of 2004, that was about 20 years ago where God brought me to a place of repentance and brokenness, and as it says in Malachi 4 and Luke 1, turned my heart to the ministry of my kids and just convicted me that my ministry to them was my great calling. [00:05:41] Amy and I had to come together in our marriage for the purpose of doing everything we possibly could to point these kids to Christ.
Laura Dugger: Well, it's so helpful to hear your own experience because you have been through toddlers and adult children, so I'm very eager to hear your perspective. But let's just go through a few common phases of parenting, beginning with that initial transition into parenthood. So what encouragement do you have for parents with very young children in the home?
Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah, well, I'm glad we're talking about these phases because it is a really difficult task that every parent struggles with. I've struggled with it tremendously to make the shifts in connecting with and leading and discipling children.
What I mean by that is that if you treat an elementary school kid like a toddler, there's going to be a mismatch. They're going to be exasperated with your baby talk and all this. [00:06:43] If you treat your high schooler like they're still in junior high, they're ready to spread their wings, have more independence, and have more voice, and they're going to feel exasperated. You're going to be restricting them. Same thing if you treat your college kid like they're still in high school or your married kid like they're still in college.
So we recognize that we've got to make these shifts. It's just really hard because we haven't done this before and we're learning as we go. But yeah, those first couple of years, I think a lot of things that Amy and I have learned through having seven kids, first of all, especially that first year. And I think about the need for mom to do everything that she can to recover from childbirth itself. But that's also emotional and spiritual in that year with that infant.
So kind of doing everything we can schedule-wise to say no to more things, to be more present in the home, to get our foundations deeper. [00:07:43] And for those that are married, as difficult as it is, there's so much attention on that little baby. But everything that you can do and Amy and I would not be like the model example of this. We realized after a lot of kids that we just had to do a whole lot better with everything you can do to take walks.
Amy and I were just having a conversation the other day about our bedtime routine. It used to be... we don't always watch TV every night, but back in the day, if we were going to watch TV, if we're going to watch the news or sports or a show, there's only one TV and you turn it on and you sit there for half an hour and you hold hands and you watch whatever it is.
I'm not saying that's the best use of time, but at least we're doing the same thing. Now there's a tendency that, well, she's got a little screen, right? She's got her phone. I've got a little screen. I've got my phone. So maybe we're in bed and she's watching something and I'm watching something and we're in bed together. But that's really not connecting us at all. [00:08:39] And not that watching the same show was this great marriage-unifying thing, but we're even more separate because of the gizmos.
So just really paying attention to that first year of saying, Okay, we need to double down on some marriage investment. We need to slow down, say no to as much as we can outside the house. And then this will be a common theme in our conversation. But be sure, be sure, be sure to start. Let's say it's your first baby to start your family Bible reading while that child is an infant.
And people will say, Okay, what in the world are we doing? My three month old is not going to be learning anything from Bible reading. I agree. They're not, quote-unquote, "learning anything" certainly not academically. But starting your family Bible reading then in your family prayer time then is so important.
Number one, I do think that spiritual things are happening in the heart of the child, that God's word is functioning on a spiritual level. But even equally important, it's building in the practice of family prayer and family Bible, because what most couples do, and this is what Amy and I did... and this goes all the way back. Let's say a Christian couple is dating and they think, well, it's really important for us to pray together and have a spiritual relationship. [00:09:55]
So, well, life's crazy. Well, when we get engaged, we'll start praying together. Well, they get engaged and they don't start praying together. Then they said, well, when we get married, then we'll pray together, we'll live together, we'll have nothing else to do but to pray and read our Bible together. So then we'll do that.
Well, they get married and life's crazy and they're not praying together then. And then they say, well, we'll pray together when we have kids and kids come. Well, you get the picture. It's always later, later, later. So getting your habit of family prayer and family Bible when that baby's an infant is super, super important.
Laura Dugger: I love that because then sometimes it's a little bit more effort on the front end to establish a new habit. But once you have that going, it's like brushing your teeth, something that you don't even think about. It's just a part of your daily life. As our children grow up, what wisdom can you share for both participating in and refraining from sports in childhood?
Dr. Rob Rienow: Whoa, that's a feisty question. [00:10:54] Well, you're asking the question for the obvious observation and reason that the sport culture really has gone crazy in our culture, particularly the travel sports, because when we were growing up, there was park district sports for elementary school kids.
And if you wanted to play baseball or basketball or soccer or softball, you signed up at the park district like all the other kids in town and it cost a minimal amount of money. And there was one practice and one game a week and all of that.
Well, now there's this pressure to get your kids into travel sports and to do that very early, five, six, seven, eight years old, because if your 7-year-old is not on elite gold travel soccer, then they're not going to be seen by the 9-year-old scouts. Right. Because the 9-year-old scouts are looking at the seven you elite gold platinum travel team. [00:11:53]
And if they're not on the nine you team, well, then they're not going to be seen by the eleven you scouts. And if they're not seen by the eleven you scout, what you risk, of course, is you risk your child missing out on the pinnacle of all of human existence, which is high school varsity athletics. Obviously, tongue in cheek there a little.
So the problem is... we love sports in our family. All of our kids who have wanted to play sports have played sports. My eldest son played baseball all the way through college. My next son played basketball all the way through college.
I've coached tons of baseball. I'm coaching baseball right now. So I ran the math, Laura. I think this is my 41st baseball season as a father this year. Forty-first. Seventeen seasons with my first son, thirteen seasons of baseball with my next, that makes 30, and then seven seasons with my third son. And then this is the fourth with my fourth son. I can't even keep track.
Now, I haven't coached all that. Baseball is a horrible game. [00:12:53] Nobody should play it because it's the worst game on the emotions for children. Kids cry multiple times during a single baseball game. Kids don't cry during soccer. There's no crying. Maybe if they lose. Baseball is the worst.
Okay, back to our conversation. There's this incredible pressure to spend tons of money and tons of time very early for sports because of this pressure or this ideal that in order for them to have this pinnacle experience in high school or gosh, I want my kid to play. I want my kid to get a college scholarship, even though that's 0.001% of expectations that should be there.
One of the interesting studies that came about... this was back in... a few years ago, they looked at sixth graders and they looked at who were the elite athletes in sixth grade and they tracked them through high school to find out what the correlation would be between the elite sixth graders and the elite twelfth graders. [00:13:52]
And they found out that there was very little correlation between the top of the food chain in sixth grade and the top of the food chain in twelfth grade. The reason for that is because of the massive changes that occur in the kid's body. Some of those sixth graders, I'm talking boy sports now, some of those sixth graders had like full beards because they had pit puberty and they're destroying the little mouse like other boys in there who had not quite caught up. Some of the kids had totally dropped out of sports. Other kids are late bloomers. So this whole idea that your kid has to be the superstar in elementary school in order to excel later just isn't true.
There's also massive financial mistakes that families make. ESPN did this thing where they took a family who did travel sports right from early elementary school and they added up all the costs of travel sports. And let's say that kid did get a college scholarship. On average, the scholarship that the kid received was 50% of the total amount the family had spent on travel sports, just getting them to get that scholarship. [00:14:54]
Laura Dugger: Wow.
Dr. Rob Rienow: I hope you didn't hear this. I'm not anti-sport. I've had two college athletes, lots of fun. The other thing for bigger families, it's oftentimes the oldest child that is getting all this investment. They're doing like weekends in hotels with dragging other children around and having them miss out on opportunities and things. So it can get totally out of whack.
Here's what we have tried to do and what we encourage families to do. Try to do park district sports through elementary school. Try to just stick with that, have them enjoy it, have them be a multi-sport athlete. If they're a super sports kid, one sport per season.
Then if your child is super interested in high school sports and you want them to have a tune-up in junior high, then do the travel in junior high to prepare them for high school. And I know. I've had this conversation with a bazillion dads and moms, and I already know what they're saying. [00:15:53] "It's too late for them to do travel in junior high. They will fall behind. They'll never be caught up." Okay, I just don't buy it. If that's what you think, that's what you think. And you may be right. But that's the way we've approached it.
Laura Dugger: I love that because I think as you're even sharing, I'm processing and thinking it's like everything else that we're seeking the Lord for wisdom in life where the Holy Spirit will lead us and guide us and give us wisdom as we need it. And I think that's such a practical way to go, because I guess my grief is... I agree. We love sports in our family and our daughters have enjoyed it. But also when we've taken time off, we've noticed levels of peace and enjoyment that they have in playing outside more and being with neighborhood kids and just having time for hospitality where I've noticed our relationships are usually at a deeper level, especially when we're in one another's homes, rather than more of the surface level that can come if we're rushing around to too many children's activities. [00:17:00]
Dr. Rob Rienow: Because the other piece of this has to do with Sundays. In a lot of these travel sports, you're going to have Sunday games, Sunday tournaments. That should create a significant concern for a Christian family. What we've seen a lot is families who, whenever there is a sport-church conflict, they choose the sport, and on the way to the sport, they give a little speech to the child.
So, "Hey, just because we're not in church today doesn't mean church isn't important and just wanted you to know that." Well, if every time sports and church collide for your family, you choose the sport, your speech means nothing to your child. You are telling your child what is more important to you. They don't pick their schedule, you pick their schedule. They don't sign up for stuff, you sign them up for stuff. So you are making the decision that if there is an ask at the sport and that conflicts with your calling at church, you choose the sport. [00:18:08]
I'll tell you a story. We did everything we could to avoid sports on Sunday. I don't think playing sports on Sunday is a sin, but the Bible spends so much time talking about the importance of Sabbath. And so we said, well, this is really a day that we want to try to guard.
So my eldest son, this was the boy who played baseball through college, he was in fifth grade playing Park District baseball and his team made the championship game. This is a big deal. And it's Saturday morning championship and a game gets rained out and rescheduled for Sunday morning, 10 a.m.
This was in our family's life, our first sports church conflict. So man, I was really struggling. Now, I wasn't preaching that particular day, so I'm like, All right, maybe we could go to the 8 a.m. service and then we could hustle over to the game and kind of do both.
As a family, we were praying and we looked at Exodus chapter 20 and we looked at this scripture, Isaiah 58, which I'll share in a moment. [00:19:07] And I was, again, struggling with this. But my son, my 10-year-old boy, he basically said, you know what? If I play in the game, then Sunday is just like any other day. And Sunday's not any other day. So I'm not going to play. I don't want to play. And I was like, "Oh, man, are you sure, little buddy?" I mean, this is a big game.
He was kind of more convicted about it than me, so obviously we deferred to his conviction. So he said, "Well, what I want to do is I want to go to church and have our normal morning. And then I just want to go over to the game. We can go late. I won't play. I'll just be on the sideline." I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We are in Zambia on a mission trip. That's where we are. Or you broke your arm. Because we had no interest in making any sort of public statement or we don't play sports on the Sabbath. And none of that. It's just a personal decision.
So he's like, "What's the problem? Why can't we go?" All right. Let's go. So we get over there midway through the game and all his teammates were all cool. [00:20:08] His coaches were all cool. But this dad comes up to me. Now, this is just a little background. This dad was a... all right, let's say the umpire makes a bad call and the proper response is for someone to shout profanity at the umpire. This guy would take care of that responsibility from the sideline. So do you know who we're talking about here? It's that guy.
Laura Dugger: Tracking with you.
Dr. Rob Rienow: So he comes over to me and says, "Hey, Rob, I see RW is not playing today. What's going on?" "Well, we don't play sports on the Sabbath, sir." No, I did not say that. I just, you know, tried to dig a little humble hole. Well, actually, I blamed RW. He didn't want to play. No, I didn't throw him under the bus either. I just tried to explain, "Well, Sunday for our family and decided not to play and not try to judge anybody."
And he says, "Well, Rob, you know I'm not much of a religious guy." I'm like, "Yes, I'm aware." And he said, "Well, but my respect for your family just went up four times." And he walks off. [00:21:08] And I'm like, "What in the world just happened?"
A year later, we're back on the same team with this family. Amy drops RW off for practice and this guy comes up to Amy first day of practice next year. He says, "Amy, Amy, hey, I just want you to know I haven't forgotten what your son did last year and made a difference in my life. Unbelievable."
This scripture, listen to this. This is Isaiah chapter 58. "If you turn your foot back from the Sabbath, from doing your pleasure on my holy day, and you call the Sabbath a delight, the holy day of the Lord honorable. If you honor it, not by going your own ways, then you shall take delight in the Lord and I'll make you ride on the heights of the earth. I'll feed you with the heritage of Jacob your father, for the mouth of the Lord has spoken."
So RW, he learned so much from that. And so every team he played on after that, before the season, he would say, "Hey, if there's Sunday games, is it okay if I'm not there?" And the coaches were like, "Yeah, that's no problem." So all the way through high school, all the way through a college career, never had to play a game on Sunday. [00:22:10] And the Lord really blessed him with that.
Again, here's my point. I'm not saying playing sports on Sunday's a sin. I'm saying Sunday's a big deal and it ought to be a big deal for Christian families.
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Laura Dugger: Whatever decision we're facing, James 1:5 says, "If any of you lacks wisdom, you should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you." And I think the way that you all sought after the Lord, He clearly guided you and then had greater purposes for that, because we never know what He's going to say unless we ask. [00:24:11]
As we move along to the next phase, do you have any counsel for us as we navigate those teen years? I'm thinking especially as it relates to technology and friendships or relationships.
Dr. Rob Rienow: Well, the first thing to do is to set proper expectations for the teen years for your child's growth and development. So, Laura, what I expect from my teenagers, I've got a 16-year-old girl and a 14-year-old boy right now. What I expect from them is that every month, every week, every year, they will become more mature, more godly, more responsible, more honoring, more diligent.
So if we were to graph them from the ages of 10 to 20, just draw a typical graph, the line would be going up and to the right. Nice straight line up and to the right. [00:25:11]
So then my next question is, Laura, I'll ask you, was that your graph from 10 to 20? Would you say from the ages of 10 to 20, every year, every month, every week, I just got a little better?
Laura Dugger: No.
Dr. Rob Rienow: No. And if I put that graph in front of a thousand parents and I said, how many of you had this graph, not a single person would raise their hand. Every single teenager goes through tons of ups and downs, right? Good months, bad months; good years, bad years; struggles, advancement, one step forward, two steps back, two steps forward, one step back.
So if your expectation is that your teenager is just going to slowly, steadily, predictably, continually, just get better and better, more and more faithful, more and more responsible, more and more godly, all those things, you're in for a tremendous, tremendous disappointment. So it helps us a lot just to recognize that there's no clean, pure path through these teen years. [00:26:11]
You asked about technology, you asked about friendships and relationships, and that would be the case there. Gosh, I really want my kids to make perfect and holy decisions throughout their teen years regarding technology and social media and online junk and boundaries and all that. If that's your expectation, things are going to blow up very, very badly. So we have to expect our kids are going to struggle, expect that they're falling short.
So the big win, what do we need, what are the most essential ingredients to get through the teen years? The big win or the most essential ingredient is what I want to call heart connection. It's rooted in Malachi 4 and Luke 1 where it talks about the work of the Holy Spirit turning the hearts of fathers, turning the hearts of parents to their kids, and the hearts of kids to their parents. It's also in Proverbs 23:26. Solomon is writing to his son there and he uses this incredible phrase. He says, "My son, give me your heart and let your eyes observe my ways." Give me your heart. [00:27:11]
In other words, "Let me into your life. I want you to share everything that's going on with me. You be an open book, totally honest, totally transparent." And that really is where the battle for the teen years is, is, will the parent lovingly, persistently, consistently pursue the heart of the teenager and will the teenager give their heart to their mom or their dad?
In other words, will we walk through these very difficult years together or will we walk through them separate? This is especially true in areas of relationships, sexuality, secret sins. My generation growing up, I mean, when it came to like boy-girl relationships, romantic relationships, sexual relationships, I mean, really the only rule for all that was you did not talk to your parents about it.
Maybe you're a Christian, maybe you talk to your youth pastor about it or Christian friends, but you would not go to your parents and say, "Hey, I really think... Me, as a boy, I would not go to my mom and say, "Hey, there's this girl at church, I really think she's kind of pretty, and when thinking about asking her out." [00:28:19] I would never talk to my mom about that. That'd be crazy.
So kids are going through and dealing with a lot of really big stuff that the world says, well, you want to make sure you don't talk to your parents about that.
So the task of building heart connection is the number one task because discipleship, any spiritual impact that you're gonna have, and my daughter, Lissy, she's got an incredible book on this called The Heart of Your Teen, but she has this phrase that any spiritual discipleship with your teenager is gonna first come through relationship. So if you don't have this heart-connected relationship with your teenager, you really don't have heart influence with them. There's a lot we could talk about there.
Laura Dugger: Well, I'm just processing because just personally, we're not quite there yet and so I'm recognizing that what we've done in the past doesn't work always in the future. I'll just share a personal example and see what your take is on this.
So currently, with our daughters, there are two times that we especially get to deeper heart issues and topics together and that is whenever we can steal away one-on-one time. [00:29:28] I guess that is the only way, but the way that it plays out for us is bedtime one-on-one with each parent and then we have scheduled one-on-one dates. And there is just something so special about... I mean, ideally we're relationally building in all aspects of life, but those times really are when they open up. Is that your experience with your teens as well or were there any other practical ways that you cultivated the relationship with them at that phase?
Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah, no, I think you're right on the money. You know, there's this old quality time versus quantity time, but quantity time is what gives you the chance for quality time. I had the blessing with my work with Visionary Family Ministries of being able to travel a couple of weekends a month to do our conferences, Visionary Parenting and Visionary Marriage conferences and so I'd always take one of the kids with me.
So we had this built-in opportunity for travel and fun and doing these events together and the heart connection that was formed there was so significant. [00:30:33] And even just yesterday, my daughter in college... we have nicknames for all of our kids and her nickname is Boots.
So we have this thing called a BWB, which is Breakfast with Boots. I say, "Hey, can we do a BWB?" That means her and me, breakfast. And she just texted me yesterday from school. She's like an hour and a half away, right? She's like, "I need a BWB." And I love that because it was an indicator to me of our heart connection. It's not every time we're together and having breakfast, we're talking about deep, gory, personal things, but it creates the warmth.
So people ask, what is heart connection? Heart connection is warmth, closeness, openness, honesty, and trust. The default setting is not heart connection. The default setting for parents of teenagers, parents will say to me, Gosh, I feel like when I'm talking to my teenager, I'm talking to the wall. I'm like, Well, why do you think that? And they're like, "Because I am." And I'm like, "Ding, ding, ding, you are. Like that spider-sense that you have of you are not getting through here is absolutely right. [00:31:43] And you can see it in their body language.
So parents will be like, I'm going to continue my speech or I'm going to talk louder. Well, you're totally wasting your time because you are talking to the wall. There's relationship stuff that has to get rebuilt before they're going to lower the guard of their heart to be able to listen to what you have to say.
Laura Dugger: That's so good. It seems like you've built in intentional practices throughout different phases. Even, I'm reminded, it was in one of our previous episodes. So I'll link to all of them in the show notes. But where you really emphasize how Deuteronomy talks about these built-in supernatural times that God has blessed with that definition that you just gave with the warmth. Do you want to share anything about that as well?
Dr. Rob Rienow: Well, let me tell a story about it. This had to do with my son, JD. He's 22, he's getting married this summer. But from the ages of 13, 14, 15, our relationship was not good. [00:32:43] Now, I had spent a lot of time with him when he was younger. I think I still was maybe coaching a little bit of his baseball. But when I was around, I oftentimes found him to be cold or bristly or just sort of annoyed. So, Amy was trying to help me with that, trying to diagnose what's happening here. Is there some element of just father-son angst and growing into manhood and stuff?
Finally... it was funny. I have a book called Five Reasons for Spiritual Apathy in Teens. That's what I felt like I was dealing with with JD. And I'm like, "Well, I should do the stuff that I write about in the book." So it's kind of desperate times. One of the things we encourage parents to do if you feel like your child is hard-hearted toward you, it's to ask them, "Have I done anything to hurt you?"
So I went to JD and I said, "Hey, JD, have I done anything to hurt you? Because sometimes when I'm around, it kind of feels like you don't want me around and you seem kind of annoyed." [00:33:47] And he said, "Dad, no, you have not done anything to hurt me. You're a wonderful father. You write books on parenting. You're great." No, that is not what he said. He said, "Yeah, you have." And I'm like, "Well, can you tell me about it?"
It was fascinating what he said. He said, "When you talk to me..." he's 14 years old. He says, "When you talk to me, you talk to me more like my 8-year-old brother, Ray. And I want you to talk to me more like my 18-year-old brother, RW." So he's 14 and he's transitioning from childhood to adulthood. Basically, he said, you're treating me like a little kid. You talk to me still like I'm a little kid. You parent me still like I'm a little kid. You use a tone of voice with me like I'm a little kid.
And he was looking and watching how I talked to RW. And I know we'll talk about that in a minute of how to transition into the adult years. But he was looking at the respect with which I talked to his older brother, the man-to-man relationship I had with his older brother. [00:34:47] He's like, "I want that." And he was exactly right. 100% right.
What I had been doing is what Ephesians 6:4 says not to do. Fathers do not exasperate your children. I was disrespecting him. I was treating him like a little kid and he wasn't a little kid anymore.
So I had to ask his forgiveness and confess that to him, acknowledge he was absolutely right. And then ask him to help me because I wasn't doing it on purpose. I just had this massive blind spot to how I was relating to him and how I was exasperating him. So I had to say, "Look, JD., I'm very committed to learning a new way of connecting with you, but I'm gonna need your help. So when I do this... I wish I could just say, I'll never do it again, but I'm probably gonna do it again. So when I do it again, I need you to help me, remind me, you try to be respectful and honoring, and I'll try to make these changes."
And really that was the start of a significant turnaround in our relationship. He moved out. I'm so terrible with time, Laura. Okay, this is spring 2024. He graduated college and moved out in summer 2023. [00:35:52] And I remember, you know, the driveway conversation with your child leaving the home for real is always a big one. And JD said to me, he said, "Dad, our relationship's never been better." And I just was so thankful. It was not a straight line, still not a straight line, but God really helped us through a tough time.
Laura Dugger: And what was sown in humility was reaped with gratitude. I love that. I think that's a great foundation is to begin with humility.
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You kind of alluded to it, but that next big transition for parents is the move to now parenting adults and possibly becoming empty nesters. So what do you want to make sure we don't miss here? [00:37:02]
Dr. Rob Rienow: Well, we've got to, first of all, talk about it. We actually have to talk about all these transitions with our kids because they're making difficult transitions as well. So when your kid's 18, if they're getting ready to get to work or get to school, we need to talk about it. We need to talk about the task of these 18 to 22 years, which fundamentally is shifting the parent-child relationship from parent-child to adult to adult.
I'll pick on my oldest son as an example. So he's getting ready to go off to school, so we had to have a conversation. RW, during 18 to 22, we have to shift our relationship from father-son to man-to-man." Now, I will always be your dad. You'll always be my son. But I don't want that to be the template of how you and I relate to each other for the rest of our lives. Once you're an independent adult and you're off the payroll, that's very important, you're no longer dependent on me. The template for us should be brother in Christ. And we are side-by-side. [00:38:05] It doesn't eradicate our father-son relationship, but the man-to-man is the priority.
So we talked about it and we said, "Okay, you're 18, what would we have to do over the next four years to shift this? And the things we talked about, well, I, dad, I'm gonna have to treat you more like a man. I can't treat you like a kid anymore." RW's like, "Well, I have to act more like a man. I can't act like a kid anymore."
Then we talked about, "Well, what can we do to build this sort of brother-in-Christ relationship?" Like if we were just brothers in Christ, what would we do? RW said, "Well, I guess we'd pray for each other. I mean, that's what Christian friends would do." I'm like, "All right. So while you're at school, when you need prayer, you text me. When I need prayer, I'm gonna text you. We're gonna become prayer partners."
So let's say Amy and I are having a difficult marriage day, I will zip a text to RW, "Hey, mom and I are having a tough marriage day to day. Could you please pray for softening of our hearts and healing for this conflict?" [00:39:06] And I've had some friends tell me as I've like shared that example, they're like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. You're telling your kids about your marriage problems." I'm like, "Well, I mean, he lived with us for 18 years. He's not under any illusion and his parents have it all together. So I'm not like bursting any bubble on his side.
And as I thought about it more, I'm like, "Who could be a safer person for me to share something deeply personal than my son? He's not gonna reject me. He's not gonna turn his back on me or shame me. He's with me no matter what. So even just that basic exchange of prayer requests has been very transformational for us. But I want to emphasize just simply the need to talk as a family about the transition and to talk about how everybody needs to play a role in making it.
Laura Dugger: Any specific ways to start that conversation or any questions that you recommend we ask?
Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah. [00:40:04] I think sometimes it's helpful to start off to see if your goal is the same. I'll give you an example in linking back in maybe to the teen years. We're talking about dating and relationships, etc.
So let's say that we've got a daughter. She's starting to get interested in boys and she wants to go to this dance and she's got this boy wants to be her boyfriend, etc., etc. So obviously we want heart connection, we want communication, but it's really helpful to see if our goals are the same.
"So, honey, let me ask you a question. Is it your goal in the future? Would you want to get married someday? If you had a magic wand, would you..." "Oh yeah, I want to get married." "Do you want to marry a godly, wonderful husband?" "Yeah." "Do you want to have a Christian marriage that honors God?" "Yeah, I want to have a Christian marriage." "Do you want to have kids and raise children to love Jesus and they're gonna tell your grandchildren to love Jesus?" "Yeah, yeah, yeah, I want all that stuff." "Okay, so you want a thriving Christian family, is that? Are you saying that's what you want, honey?" "Yeah, mom, yeah, that's what I want." "Okay, well guess what? I want the exact same thing. So do you know like our end goal is identical right now? You want exactly what I want and I want exactly what you want. So, therefore, how about you and I do this path together? Like if we're going to the same place and you want what I want and I want what you want, doesn't it make sense for us to work on this together, talk together, pray together?" And most teenagers will be like, "Yeah, I guess that does make kind of sense if we're trying to go the same direction." [00:41:33]
Now, if you want to go different directions, you have another, right, another challenge and another conversation to have. But that's a lot of what we can do with our adult kids.
They're 18, they're getting ready to work, they're getting ready to leave the house or they're leaving college and they're getting independent. "Hey, can I just want to talk about sort of our future? Can we talk about what our relationship might look like when you're 25?" "Let me tell you what I'm hoping for. I'm hoping that we have a warm, close relationship. I'm hoping that you're following Jesus and I'm following Jesus. I'm hoping that we're free and able to talk about things, disagree about things. I'm hoping that we're able to support each other and pray for each other and we have a wonderful adult-to-adult relationship. What do you think about all that?"
And hopefully your child says, "Yeah, that sounds good to me." "Great, all right, how are we gonna get there? How are we gonna make this transition from parent-child to adult-to-adult?" And you bring them in on the brainstorming.
Laura Dugger: What child would not appreciate that level of respect? [00:42:30] I think they would tend to rise up to it. So whether it's from your children's perspective or with you and Amy, when your family looks back, what efforts in parenting would you say have made the greatest relational impact throughout all these stages?
Dr. Rob Rienow: The practice that has been the most essential is the one that was absent for me for so many years, like the first 10 years of our marriage was absent, but it was that practice of family worship. And by family worship, we mean that time of family prayer and family Bible reading, family singing when we can. I don't mean to weird people out about singing, but at least family prayer and family Bible reading and the discussion that connects to that.
No question at all that that core practice became the engine that powers the family emotionally and spiritually. [00:43:30] And the driver for that, the driver for family worship has become less about discipline.
In other words, it's very important for us to be disciplined and do all these things. That the driver being neediness, of my own spiritual neediness, my own need to be in prayer with my family, my own need to be in scripture with my family. So we have a family worship room in our house. Every room in the house has a name. So there's bed rooms, because you go to bed there. You have a playroom, because you play there and a dining room, because you dine there. You name the different rooms in your house.
So we have a family worship room and we name it that because that's the most important activity that happens in that room. In the middle of the room is our prayer table. It's actually a coffee table. And then there are two couches and a couple of tables with lamps on them. So coffee table, couches, lamps. Laura, what do normal humans call the room?
Laura Dugger: Probably the living room.
Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah, living room, family room, parlor. [00:44:30] I was in Georgia, a woman said, "That's the parlor." I'm like, "I don't know what you're talking about. It's the living room." But yeah, we don't call it the living room. We call it the family worship room because that's the most important thing that happens in the room.
We were moving... This was 10 years ago now. So my daughter Lainey, who's 20, she was 10. We were moving and so we were looking at different houses to rent or to buy and we're with a real estate agent visiting different houses. And on two different occasions, I had the same exact thing happen. So it really burned into my memory and I'm thankful for that.
Lainey is my eager beaver girl. She wants to go first. She wants to be in there. So we get to this house and the real estate agent opens the front door and Lainey jumps into the entryway of the house and I'm third in line. So I'm coming in next. And I see Lainey quickly look left and look right and then she points to her right. She points to this room, she goes, "Dad, dad, this could be the family worship room." [00:45:32] And she was so excited to find this room.
And it impacted my heart so deeply. And I'm like, "Why in the world is a 10-year-old girl trying to... why is she so excited about finding the family worship room in this new house? It struck me that she understood at this really young age that this spiritual meal for our family, these few moments of family prayer, few moments of family Bible, this really was the engine that powered our family. This was the meal that kept us spiritually strong and created an environment for us to confess our sins to each other and to receive forgiveness from one another. So even at 10, she just knew like, if we don't have that, we're in real trouble.
Laura Dugger: That's such an encouragement for each of us. I think if there's one practical takeaway that that is something we can leverage one of those ideas with, not minimal effort, but not that much effort to yield maximum results and enjoyment. [00:46:37]
This next question, I'm curious, how can we recognize if we are drifting toward becoming a child-centered family? And then the other part is, if we do find ourselves in that place today, what are a few practical steps to move us in the direction of God's actual vision for our family and for our marriage?
Dr. Rob Rienow: Yeah, it's a great phrase, this child-centered family. It's a new-ish phrase in the psychology world and in the family ministry world. Last couple of decades, people have been talking about it. There's good reason to warn against that. In other words, certainly warning against this idea that a child's whims and wishes determine everything. Like the child decides what we have for dinner. The child decides our activities for the weekend. The child decides whatever decisions the family making. That can be incredibly destructive. [00:47:36]
I think sometimes, as people use that phrase, well, if it's not child-centered, well, what is it? And they say, well, I don't know. And then a lot of people say, well, I guess parent-centered. In other words, that parents should be driving the ship. And I certainly agree that parents should be the leaders of the home without question. But ultimately, what we're talking about is building a God-centered family, right? A Christ-centered family. That our hearts and our mission and our purpose and our budget are focused on Him.
One area that Amy and I experienced and spent quite a number of years struggling with... and this would have been from married years 20 to 24 especially. So we're coming up on 30 this summer. But that window around 20 years of marriage, we had read, with both of our backgrounds in ministry, and Amy's a marriage and family therapist, there used to be some teaching out there that year seven was like the difficult marriage year. [00:48:38] And if you could kind of get past year seven, then you're in pretty good shape, unlikely to get divorced, etc. Man, I think that's crazy now. We've had so many friends married into their 20s, divorced.
And Amy and I realized, again, right around that 20-year mark, we went into a colder, more distant season in our marriage. And as we began to recognize it and diagnose it, it was because we were pouring ourselves into parenting and we were pouring ourselves into the ministry. And those are two things we did very well.
In other words, when I say we did very well, we were very committed to working together as parents, and we enjoyed working together in Visionary Family Ministries. I should say it came easier to us to focus there. But we were not investing in just us. We slipped from date nights. We slipped from overnights. [00:49:37]
We slipped from taking walks together and just investing in us. And slowly but surely, we became more and more distant, more and more cold to one another, until we started realizing, hey, we are not feeling very close and connected. And if we don't start making some changes to double down on investing just in our marriage relationship, and Amy talks about it this way, in rebuilding our couple identity. Because we had a very strong family identity, we had a very strong ministry identity, but we were losing our couple identity. And we had to take some urgent action to deal with that.
The first thing it meant... we had started to pray together at the 13-year mark of our marriage. So first 13 years, we didn't pray together at all, which was a disastrous pattern. So we started praying together every night before bed. But then as we realized this disconnection, we said we needed to have a little prayer time every morning.
And that's not an hour prayer meeting, one or two minutes of prayer before we start our day. And then really starting to get back to marriage 101. Any premarital class is going to talk to you about the importance of a date night, whether it's monthly, whether it's weekly, just a regular date night. [00:50:50] And we're like, Oh, we don't need a date night. We spend a lot of time together. We parent together. We do our ministry trips together. Well, we really needed a date night. And I think every couple is different with their temperament.
But we find that we get a lot out of a night away, like a night at a hotel. So maybe a 24-hour mini retreat somewhere. Obviously, we can't do that every week. We can't do that every month. But if we can get two or three of those in a year, that goes a long way for us.
Laura Dugger: Again, I just appreciate the practicality. So thank you for sharing. And if we want to continue gleaning your wisdom after this conversation, where would you direct us to go online, Rob?
Dr. Rob Rienow: Well, after you finish listening to The Savvy Sauce podcast, come on over to Family Vision, which is our weekly podcast. You can find that on any podcast service. It's usually Amy and me in the studio sharing the things that God's teaching us and the areas that we're growing and encouragements for you just to be growing in your faith and family relationships. [00:51:54]
But you can find Visionary Family Ministries anywhere online, any social media page or our website, visionaryfam.com, and at our shop page on our website, all the books we've been talking about today, Healing Family Relationships, The Heart Of Your Teen, Visionary Parenting, Visionary Marriage. And there's going to be just this continual theme running through all of our resources, which is first just starting with God's word, His love for us. He loves your family. He hasn't brought you this far to abandon you. And then what are some biblical principles, biblical action steps that we can take to grow in faith and strengthen our homes?
Laura Dugger: I love it. Well, I can attest that our family and our church have greatly benefited from multiple resources of yours. So with delight, I will link to all of those in the show notes.
And Rob, you're familiar that we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. [00:52:53] And so as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?
Dr. Rob Rienow: Well, the first scripture that comes to mind from our conversation today is Jesus's instruction in Matthew 6:33. So the savvy sauce is seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you as well. So we're talking about parenting. We're talking about marriage.
We're talking about family. At the end of the day, it starts with each one of us just seeking first his kingdom, his righteousness, our personal walk with Christ, and then asking his spirit then to overflow into all of our family relationships.
Laura Dugger: Yes and amen, brother. It has, again, just been a sincere joy to learn from you. So you've blessed us many times on this podcast.
And Rob, I am continually grateful. So thank you for being my guest again today.
Dr. Rob Rienow: Thanks, Laura. I love it. Appreciate your ministry.
Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. [00:53:56] But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.
This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.
But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.
Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. [00:55:01]
Romans 10.9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. [00:56:04] I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.
Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
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