5. Ways To Deepen Your Intimacy In Marriage With Certified Sex Therapist and Author, Dr. Douglas Rosenau
*DISCLAIMER* This episode is intended for adults
1 Corinthians 13:4-8(a) NIV “Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.”
**Transcription Below**
Dr. Douglas Rosenau has truly been a pioneer in Christian sex therapy. He is a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex therapist, author, speaker, adjunct professor, and co-founder of Sexual Wholeness. His training in both theology and counseling helps couples enrich and reclaim God’s wonderful gift of sexual intimacy.
At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Books by Dr. Doug with various co-authors:
Celebration of Sex for Newlyweds
Secrets of Eve by Dr. Archibald Hart, Catherine Hart Weber, and Debra Taylor
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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)
Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”
Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”
Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”
Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”
Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”
Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”
Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”
Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”
Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“
Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“
Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”
**Transcription**
[00:00:00] <music>
Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.
[00:00:19] <music>
Laura Dugger: I want to say thank you to Leman Property Management for being such a loyal sponsor of The Savvy Sauce. They're located in Central Illinois. With over 1,600 apartment homes in all price ranges, they have listings throughout Morton, Pekin, Peoria, Washington, and Canton. They can find the perfect spot for you.
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Today's message is not intended for little ears. We'll be discussing some adult themes and I want you to be aware before you listen to this message.
Today I'm excited to introduce you to Dr. Douglas Rosenau. He has truly been a pioneer in Christian sex therapy. He is a licensed marriage and family therapist, certified sex therapist, author, speaker, adjunct professor, and co-founder of Sexual Wholeness. [00:01:25]
His training in both theology and counseling helps couples enrich and reclaim God's wonderful gift of sexual intimacy. He was also my professor and supervisor in graduate school, so my husband and I know him well.
Today we talk about deepening levels of marital intimacy, and you will hear him use a car analogy as he explains brakes and accelerators for couples in the bedroom. I hope you find this chat to be fun and beneficial.
Hello, Dr. Doug.
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Oh, this is exciting because we've known each other so long. I'm just glad to be here. This is going to be fun.
Laura Dugger: Thank you so much for joining us. You are a co-founder of Sexual Wholeness. Can you just tell us a little bit more about that journey?
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Well, Laura, it started way back in the 70s, where a friend of mine, when I was working on my doctorate, went to take a sex therapy class. I was at Northern Illinois at the time, at a university. She took it at Loyola Med School in Chicago. [00:02:27] And it just piqued my curiosity, and it made me think, The church doesn't deal with sex very well.
So I went and took classes from the med school in sex therapy. Then the psychology had a sex therapy practicum. So it's kind of like way back then God was saying, I would like you to cultivate a sexually healthy church, and I would like you to be able to really unfold some of this, especially for people of faith.
Laura Dugger: And you have done that so well. I know that having a good theology of sex has always been very important to you. So can you just give us a brief overview of your beliefs in that area?
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Well, people sometimes often ask me, why did... you and I, and many of our listeners will believe there is a creator God. So why did that creator God create us sexual beings, male and female? Which back in Genesis it says we're created in His image, male and female. [00:03:26]
I think when people ask me, why did God create sex, I would say because He's intimate and loving, and He really wanted to have some ways that human beings could express that. And so our sexuality really to me is a reflection of who God is and how He relates and the importance of relationships, which is a real important part of my theology, is that sex was about intimacy, not about the buzz, the rush, the excitement. But it's about connection.
So my theology would be we're sexual beings because it adds a richness to every relationship, just being gendered, man and woman. And then the fact that we can be sexually attracted and aroused and enter into relationships and especially into marriage where there can be a gentle expression, to me, that's really reflecting a lot of who God is and the oneness and the intimacy that He would like us to experience as humans.
Laura Dugger: You say that so well, and you've written about it in so many of your books, which are all wonderful. [00:04:27] We will link to those in the show notes so everybody can see where to learn more. But what would you say are some factors that influence the level of intimacy spouses will experience with one another?
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: What I think is really important when we look at intimacy and I'm thinking of... I work a lot with couples, with moms, with kids and just families, you know? And so I'm thinking it's so complex when you think about, how do we create a really good sex life together?
But I think part of it is just time and energy, you know, that we don't set enough time apart. I think that there's part of it that sometimes we maybe, even like this podcast, we really haven't taken the time to really think through... like a question that I like to ask couples is, what does sex mean to you? And I think that if they can think that through, like is expressing affection, it's recreation, it's whatever it is, but it's really complex. [00:05:27]
And all of those factors have filled the meaning they want it to be in their sex life. There's just all kinds of roadblocks, all kinds of barriers to express affection or to have the energy to play and to have fun together. Especially if you have children that are interfering with those times.
Laura Dugger: Certainly. And that's so many people listening today. So in that stage, you mentioned time and energy. How do they carve out their schedule to make sure they save time and energy to connect with one another?
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: I think sometimes husbands don't realize, and we're going to talk about aphrodisiacs later, but I don't think husbands realize sometimes that a real aphrodisiac would be them letting their wife go take a bubble bath and them getting the kids ready for bed and reading a story or when they come home from work, maybe taking time to take the kids totally off of her for a while. [00:06:24]
That type of... not only does it show concern and her heart will be... and because her heart is more connected, then her body will be more open and desire. But I don't think we think sometimes just things that little gestures like that they can make a real difference with time and energy, like giving the kids a bath, like maybe taking the time to take them out to the park while mom, you know, just...
But I think that the other way around, there's also ways that when we look at it, that wives can really be, you know, just with the flirting and just some of those types of things that when you're tired don't come as easy. But I mean, every once in a while my wife will playfully grab my crotch. That's not for her sake. That's for me. You know what I mean?
So I think some of those little gestures of just flirtatiousness and flashing them now and again or whatever it is, I think those take a little extra energy, a little extra thoughtfulness, and intentionality both ways to make it. So it's so complex of what gets in the way. A lot of these little things that can make a real difference in terms of just a romantic love life that's invigorating. [00:07:33]
Laura Dugger: So, in general, what would you say are a few brakes and accelerators for both genders?
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: I think some of the breaks we're already getting at. And that is a big one. There's a book called Secrets of Eve. They studied in thousands of women. When I read that study, I thought, you know what's the biggest break for women? I thought was going to be desire. It's like four on the list.
The biggest is fatigue. It's just being tired. Another one that was really a break for wives, especially, was not feeling emotionally connected. Because they really want their husband to make love to them, not just to have sex. So I think that can be a break.
So what would be accelerators? Well, part of it would be truly paying attention, you know, making time and maybe the self-nurture working with fatigue with an app or somehow being able to work around that. Just gender differences, too. [00:08:33]
I don't think we can walk in each other's shoes fully. It's really difficult at times. Like, young couples will come to me and the wife will say to me, "Why is my husband walking around naked all the time?" And I'll say, "Oh, sweetheart, I think he's walking around naked because that's what he wants you to do."
And they'll say to me, "Well, him just hanging out doesn't do much for me." But I say, "Oh, but your body... you're Eve to him. There is an attraction there." I think a break could be just staying in mommy clothes and old sweatshirts and jeans and not dressing up and being sexy. I think a break sometimes was not realizing for the husband a real accelerator is just naked, you know?
I was laughing because I was reading one thing on the internet where it's saying that, you know, here's what is really accelerators for wives. There's like pages of, you know, feed the kids and take time to shave and put a little aftershave and do this or that. [00:09:33] And the advice to women were "come naked and have food". That was their advice of the great accelerators.
So there's a lot of difference there of what would be a break and accelerator. I think just gender-wise, but some of these are in general. I think like making time, that would be a break and an accelerator to really make time for each other.
I think that idea of just being flirtatious and flirting where it doesn't have to lead anywhere, I think that's a real accelerator. So I think there's some of those that would be in common too.
Laura Dugger: That's great. I love it. You also teach often about lovemaking as a continuum. Could you break down that continuum for us?
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Okay. So, what I think can happen is if we did it on a continuum of 0 to 10... I oftentimes get couples complaining about duty and pity sex. That it isn't fun for the wife definitely, and it isn't really fun for the husband either. [00:10:34]
So I think 0 to 2 is... I usually start with just pity sex. That's one. Well, you know, you need it or, you know... And then the duty sex is, well, this is my responsibility, but it's really not done with gracious giving or any type of real invitation.
So what I say is that what we're trying to do is get into nurturing, connecting, and passionate sexuality and lovemaking. So the nurturing lovemaking would be... and I know I'm stereotyping a little bit, but about 80% of relationships, the man is the high drive. More testosterone, will think about sex more frequently, desire more physical release and just enjoyment.
To me, if I'm thinking of that, so three and four of nurturing sex would be the wife maybe saying, "You know, I hadn't thought about it all day. I'm really tired, but I know this is a language that really meets your soul needs, your heart needs, and really is something that connects with you. [00:11:45] I don't want an orgasm tonight, but we could even do intercourse, but it's going to be more nurturing than passionate or connecting."
So I think when I look at the continuum, most really good sex takes place about three to six. It's really nurturing and connecting. It's passionate at times. You really have to have that 45 minutes to an hour. Sometimes it's hotel sex, it's on vacation where you're really feeling connected and rested and no kids are there. They're all at grandma's, you know?
I was hearing a lecture a while back and it talked about good enough sex. It was Barry McCarthy. I like he writes really well. But Barry was saying, how would you define good enough sex? And all of us were saying, well, saddling, I think, not very good at all.
He said, no, that is really where most of lovemaking takes place from three to six on the continuum. [00:12:41] He said it really is something that's done for connecting, for recreation, for kind of clearing the air and making you an item again, because this is not something you do with anyone else.
I think when I look at the continuum, and I'm certainly speaking especially into weary moms, you know, sometimes it's just going to be nurturing. And sometimes it's going to be... you know, because women are so unpredictable. You know, it may be nurturing and all of a sudden, I think, this is fun.
Because Laura, we're really seeing that with women, desire oftentimes comes after activity doesn't motivate it. And so it's not like, wow, I'm feeling horny, let's do it. It's kind of like, I'm exhausted, but this could be meaningful. And since you initiated and you've been really nice for three days, this could be a good thing. [00:13:32]
That's still not desire at times. Sometimes it's actually in the bed and bodies start to be aroused and then you're thinking, Yeah, we should do this more often, maybe.
So I think that there's a part of that, that when you try to think through that continuum, that sometimes it's going to be nurturing, but it could bump into connecting before you know it, and maybe even get up to passionate, get up to seven, eight, or nine. But I think with that continuum, we could really think, yeah, good enough is good.
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. And it's very realistic, like you're saying, meeting that couple where they're at.
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Right. Like wives have said to me sometimes, "I know you have a greater desire than I do, but I don't want you masturbating. I'll give you a hand job. We'll do something manual or we'll do something where we can be connected and be intimate. It may be a three. But sometimes we just need to do three for you, bud, because I can't muster a six." [00:14:30]
So I think that there's some of that when I look at that continuum that we're saying, yeah, three's good.
Laura Dugger: Three's good.
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Yeah.
Laura Dugger: And you've even mentioned...
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: And it's nurturing at times.
Laura Dugger: And you write in your book that sometimes women are coming to you saying, I actually do not desire an orgasm every single time, especially in certain stages of life when I'm really stressed or there's little kids at home. And you give a rule of thumb in there that, Hey, that's okay. Let's just say at least 50% of the time she's reaching orgasm. But then letting her off the hook if she does want to offer that nurturing connection.
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: I get wives saying to me, you know, my clients saying to me, "My husband can climax in two minutes, but I just take more time and focus and I get distracted. I'm more like 15, 20." And they're saying, "I just don't want to take that time sometime. I'm too tired, but I really would like to be sexual." [00:15:29]
I've had husbands say, "No, if you can't climax and really have fun and get into it..." I remember one young couple I was working with and she had two under the age of two. So she had an infant, like a two-month-old and a whatever, 18 month or two. So he was just saying, "Oh no, we can't do nurturing if you can't get into it."
And this is so funny. Finally, she looked at him and she said, "You know, I take care of the babies. I take care of so many different things. What is two minutes of my time?" I looked at him and I said, "A little quick, aren't we? A little quick here." But I think she was trying to say, "Buster, you need this. I want to nurture you too."
Laura Dugger: Sure.
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: And I thought that was funny. "What's two minutes of my time?"
Laura Dugger: I love it. You have a gift for inviting people into this conversation about sexual intimacy in marriage and you've helped give vocabulary to this topic through your many books and your seminars. [00:16:33]
So the book that we're going to focus on today is one that you recently co-authored with Dr. Deborah Neal, and it's entitled Total Intimacy. Can you describe the different colors and types of intimacy you cover in this book?
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Sure. I think that this will really help us with the brakes and accelerators too. Before I begin that, you kind of triggered in me how difficult it is sometimes just to have a language and to be real, for couples too, to really create language.
One young couple I was working with, they all of a sudden started laughing and I said, "What's going on?" And they said, "Well, my pastor that referred me to you said, "You will see Dr. Doug, it's going to be like that old show, Mr. Rogers. It's like you're in Mr. Rogers' neighborhood. But then things are going to come out of Doug's mouth that are nothing like Fred Rogers would ever say. But don't be alarmed. He's a good man. He just talks about sex so much he has no filter." And I just laughed like, "No, this is not Mr. Rogers' neighborhood. I'm sorry."
Laura Dugger: You're so funny. [00:17:39]
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: But I think we have to have the language. So what we were trying to think through was to color code and say, if you want a good sex life, alive and meaningful, you really need three types of intimacy.
We started with green intimacy. Green intimacy was being intimate companions and being good friends. And we're saying that that's really foundational. You don't want to sleep with the enemy. So part of building trust, learning to just share life together, a lot of communicating.
So we talk through Green with things like learning how to really communicate well and the importance of that. We talk about building trust. We talk about even just sharing spiritually, things that create a deeper intimacy, a deeper sharing of life and companionship.
So we chose these colors in part meaningfully. The green was because so much of life and growth is green. Leaves and trees and grass and all of that is green. [00:18:35] So we thought, that's a good one to say, You gotta be growing that friendship and really feeling close to each other and feeling that intimate companionship.
Another part we talk about with green intimacy is you need physical affection. With physical affection in some ways is just like you have with your children, but it's still a physical affection that really is connecting. So sitting close on the couch rather than in your two separate easy chairs when you watch a movie together at home, just doing more hugging and just touching and that kind of thing.
What we're saying too, Laura, with the colors, and so I'm going to get into purple here now and talk about purple. So we say that the colors really are on a continuum of very light green to dark green. So there's probably some dark green that you may not do with your kids.
You know, you may not sit in each other's laps basically for an hour. [00:19:34] That's probably not what you do with your kids. So that's really dark green. Then the light purple and purple, I think that's the color that's neglected and the type of energy that's neglected the most, which is being lovers, being flirtatious, but it doesn't have to lead anywhere.
With Purple, what I will say is, are you still kissing on the mouth, you know, passionately? And it doesn't have to be just in the bedroom. Could you on it before he goes to work? Give him a kiss for like five seconds right on the mouth, little tongue even maybe, but I mean, just really kiss.
Or I'll say, could you hug for two minutes or even for a minute? Because sometimes people will say, well, tell me Dr. Doug, what the difference between green and purple intimacy is. And I'll say, well, if I met your wife at church, and I hugged her for a minute, what would you start thinking? You'd say, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is a little too intimate. [00:20:33]
Now, if I gave her that five-second brotherly hug, we'd be cool. So green hugs are different than purple hugs in some ways. And a green kiss on the cheek is different than five seconds mouth to mouth, which you wouldn't do with your children.
I think men especially really lose a lot of intimate sexual connecting and flirting because it always has to lead somewhere. One couple was saying, "He came home from work and I was feeling kind of frisky and I think tonight's the night and we're gonna have fun. So he came home and I was at the stove cooking and the kids were on a video in the den and he came up and grabbed me and hugged me and grabbed my boobs like he usually does."
And she said, "I felt like just kind of rubbing my butt in his crotch and just kind of playing with him a little bit and having fun." [00:21:27] But she said, I knew if I did that, he'd want to have sex immediately. He'd make sure the kids had another half-hour video. He'd make me stop the meal." And I looked at him, I said, "Buster," I said, "you're losing a lot of fun times together because it always has to lead somewhere."
So I think that purple to me is probably neglected. Now, light purple, of course, would be where I talk about with dating couples and that kind of thing. I'm saying, To me, when I look at this, God blessed genital expression of sexuality for marriage and between a man and a woman. But I think that whole feeling attracted and aroused and enjoying.
So I look at purple about... I always say it's for sensual connecting. It's not for arousal, but it is arousing. You know, because I mean, you kiss the woman of your life or the man of your life on the mouth for 10 seconds, there could be a little arousal there. Does that make sense? Kind of like, we don't do purple enough, I don't think, Laura. We really don't to allow that to be there.
Laura Dugger: That makes perfect sense. And it's very clarifying to hear all of your language around this. That really helps. [00:22:33]
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: When I talk to couples, sometimes I give them the language, like the colors. Like one young couple said... Oh, I think they were in their 40s, but anyway, that's young to me. But they just said, Oh, we do purple hugs all the time. And I said, "Well, what's purple hugs?" No, they were younger because they didn't have kids yet. They didn't have any children yet.
They said, "We do shower hugs." I said, "What's a shower hug?" They said, "Well, we both like to take a quick shower before we go to work in the morning. So the one that's in there first, you have shower hugs, and we get in there, we get in the shower together and hug each other naked, rub a little bit, but we know we got to get to work. So it's always purple hug. It's always purple, but it's so much fun. And I thought, Yeah, that's a good example of purple. Shower hugs.
Laura Dugger: Perfect.
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Shower hugs.
Laura Dugger: Practical thing somebody could try tonight.
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Yeah. And just kind of coaching, I think, especially husbands up about how learn to flirt. One of my couples, she was really saying, I know that he likes my body, but I just hate flaunting it. I got a little bit of body image, which is a big break for women at times, this whole body image. [00:23:36]
But this was so funny. She said, "I was at the picture window. No one was around, out on the front yard, and he was busy out there mowing the yard with our riding mower." And she said, "I didn't have any problem or anything. I just lifted up my sweatshirt and flashed him." And she said, "He ran right over a flower bed." She said, "I think I need to do it more often. It was really a surprise."
But I think that's purple. I think that the ability to say, we have ways that we can arouse and excite and have fun together. And then the orange would be sex. But I always talk about how light orange to dark orange and sometimes what we neglect with the lighter orange is just enough foreplay that can be connecting and arousing. [00:24:23]
And then as we got into the orange section of the book is where we really talked a lot about the continuum too, and talked a little bit about the differing desires, and talked about breaks and accelerators in this Total Intimacy book. So our orange, we're trying to not be simplistic.
And I think what we're trying to say is, here's the thing that really bugs me, is I come from a real conservative Christian background, and I don't think within Christianity or within concerted faith, Islam and Jewish too at times, I don't think we give women enough of a sexual voice. We oftentimes say it's your duty to pleasure your husband, to serve him. And that's just not God's plan. God's plan is it be mutual.
This is just recently. I don't know what she was. It was like 26. And she was just saying, "Well friend, do you enjoy sex for yourself and for your..." And she said, "Oh, that would be selfish. I think God wants me to be there to serve my husband." [00:25:19]
And I said to her, I said... I'm dad to them. So I use language. I said, "Sugar, listen to me." I said, "Do you know what the biggest turn-on to a husband is?" And she was like, "Dr. Doug..." She was hanging on my every word there. And I said, "The biggest turn-on to a husband is a turned-on wife." And I said, "You not really enjoying your own and making it mutual."
We really talk about mutuality in the book and in our section of saying, this is something that is unique. It'll have uniquely male flavors, uniquely female flavors, and ways and things that are good. But you need to learn that language. You need to learn how to pleasure each other and how to please and to really tailor it to that person and not expect them to be like you.
Laura Dugger: Oh, that's so good. There's so much wisdom packed in all of that. I want to touch on something that you had mentioned earlier with that 80% of the time that it is the husband that's the higher desire in the relationship. They're never the same, but 20% of the time the wife is. Let's speak to that wife. [00:26:24] Because sometimes they're not given as much air time.
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: And when you think about that or actually if we had a hundred men, that's 20. That's a lot of men. And here's another thing that I think is really important to think about is in a marriage if you're a little bit more the high drive, high desire or the low drive, low desire, those are hard roles to fill. Because let's assume... and I'm going to get to the 20%.
Laura Dugger: Sure.
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: But let's assume, well, either way, the person who's the low desire will feel like I'm the gatekeeper. I'm the stick in the mud. I'm the one that's always pouring water on the... you know, raining on the parade. And the one that's the high desire thinking, "Oh, I'm just going to open myself up for rejection. I hate to be always the initiator."
So I think whether it's the husband or wife, those are not easy roles to be in, that we can kind of help. [00:27:22] So if the husband is the lower desire, then helping him feel like he's just as much a man, because kind of the stereotype is men are always horny, always ready. And it's not true, obviously.
So it's really being able for the high desire person to kind of cater a bit to the lower desire and realize that the lower desire is going to slow it down and make it richer at times. And then the lower desire not making it like, you know, you're a sex fiend, but more like, wow, you express and feel things through our lovemaking that I don't all the time, but talk to me and let's negotiate and think through what would be a helpful amount of time.
I think what happens sometimes with the low desire, high desire, whether it's the wife or the husband, is I think it can get to where they just get frustrated with each other rather than really talking it through carefully. So often, it's really not about numbers. It's about the heart. It's about really talking it through. [00:28:27]
So that the couple comes in and says... you know, the one partner says, well, we make love maybe twice a month and I would like to make love once or twice a week. So they're really far apart. So I'm trying to help them really hear each other's heart.
So I'll tell the lower desire drive one, I'll say, you know, that person's not a sex fiend. This is not someone that just wants to use you. But then I'll talk to the higher drive and say, you know, he or she doesn't hate sex and enjoys it with you. So sometimes they leave my office really understanding each other better and really negotiating and talking it through from their heart more.
They may have been making love twice a month, and I may have upped it to three or four times a month, but they're both happy because they've really thought through beyond the metrics, beyond the numbers, to really understanding high and low drive and frequency, and they've really talked about it. [00:29:29]
So I think that's so important whether it's the wife or the husband, to really be able to negotiate, to engage, to accept, to not be judgmental, but just to have curiosity about, Okay, what would be good for you? Well, that wouldn't be good for me, but talk to me. What could we do to make it different?
I think sometimes that the conversations around it and trying not to be judgmental. But just to realize it will vary and sometimes it'll vary with the wife being the high drive.
Laura Dugger: Definitely.
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: And so then they're going to have to take the high drive position and not make that person feel inferior or less or never wanting sex, but really just trying to think it through, how do I help my husband engage?
I think another thing that happens with drive at times is sometimes we feel like nothing's going to ever affect that drive. But it does. I'll oftentimes get husbands in my office saying, is something wrong with me? Like one lawyer recently, he said, "I was preparing for a case. I put in 14-hour days, sometimes two weeks in a row." And I said, "There's nothing wrong with your libido. You're just exhausted." [00:30:31]
I don't care if you're a man with a high drive, you're exhausted and your libido has been poured into that trial you have coming up. Sometimes just to be able to talk, negotiate, understand is important in working it through.
Laura Dugger: It's so good. And to not be critical or judgmental, to the understanding.
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Right, right. Let me just do a real... I mean, this is a little bit different, but so often we will bump into the orange part just with dysfunction. Some. Like sometimes there'll be wives with pain and I always say, Don't play through pain. See your OBGYN or see a physical therapist that deals with pelvic floor because there's a lot of good female physical therapists pelvic floor specialists that could help deal with pain.
Then sometimes I'm getting things like erectile difficulties, you know? Like, "I just cannot stay erect." This was one of my husband's stories where they came in and they were really struggling with it. And what had happened was this, was he came home from being on the road traveling. His job called quite a bit of traveling.
He'd been gone three days, came home Friday. They were both really excited. But he fought Atlanta traffic for an hour and a half to get home. It's typical Atlanta traffic where I live. [00:31:44] And then she was so excited. She said, "Let's go out and have a good meal together and just talk and catch up and then you know what we're going to do tonight." So they were all excited.
So he went out, had a couple of beers or a couple of martinis and a big meal and came home exhausted. He couldn't get erect. He couldn't. And I thought, "Oh, dear Lord, I wish I could have been there right then because I would have said to them, don't get nervous. He fought Atlanta traffic. He's exhausted from three days of being away. He really is excited to see you. It's nothing about you. It's nothing about him. It's just tired and he had probably one too many drinks, maybe, which is a depressant, and a big meal, and so on and so forth.
So they came into me all upset because both of them were mentally up on the bedpost worried about can he ever... you know, his whole erection and being able to be sexually aroused. [00:32:36] And it went away really quickly when they realized it was just normal things that will affect orange arousal at times for the man and the wife, for the high drive, low drive, whatever. If they acknowledge those and just accept it, oftentimes the dysfunction doesn't even take place.
Laura Dugger: That's amazing and probably really helpful for somebody to hear because...
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Oh yeah, for wives especially, not to take it personal and just say, Oh baby, you must be tired. We'll try it again tomorrow."
Laura Dugger: Absolutely. Got the rest of our lives.
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Laura Dugger: Now that you've given us language to feel more comfortable dialoguing about sexual intimacy with our spouse, what is the next step a listener can take today?
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: What I would work on is for them to think through their green, purple, and orange and try to say, what would do to help us be better friends? Are we taking enough time? We haven't prayed together in ages. [00:34:48] Could we maybe hold hands and just pray over something together?
So I would say, think through green a little bit better and what it would be about the green that would help them grow the friendship and the intimate companionship. Then I would think about purple and maybe think through, how could we be flirtatious? It wouldn't necessarily have to lead anywhere, but we could just be lovers and we could really enjoy each other. Then the orange. I know that there are ways that they could think of brakes and accelerators and try to sort out.
So that would be my general idea of just saying, I think that there are three kinds of intimacy and three kinds that really help to make a great sex life and that you can't neglect any of the colors.
Laura Dugger: That's so good. And they've got this recording today as a resource if they want to listen to this together and they can pull some questions from everything that you've shared.
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Good.
Laura Dugger: So that's great. You have so many books and resources available. Do you mind just sharing more about those so our friends listening know where to find more information?
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Okay. [00:35:46] Well, the one that we talked about more today is Total Intimacy, and it's available on Amazon, Christian Book, just a really short 100 pages, easy read, a lot of just practical suggestions. We really try to have a lot of good discussion questions in it.
Then my big manual is called A Celebration of Sex, and it's a bestseller. Anything that sells over 100,000 copies is considered a bestseller. So A Celebration of Sex. What I oftentimes tell people with that manual is buy it for three or four chapters. You don't have to read all 400 pages.
But you may buy it because of chapter six, natural aphrodisiacs and setting the mood. Or you might buy it for the chapter on making love during the children years and how can you stay lovers during those children years.
Or you might buy it just for making love to your husband and trying to think through some different ideas and trying to understand a whole different reality and a whole different gender. [00:36:41]
So I always tell when you buy like Celebration, the big book, and then we spun it off with some friends into Celebration After 50 for Sex and Aging with Jim and Carol and Childerston. And then half a little one's called Celebration Sex for Newlyweds where we have like 135-page little book that is really a nice wedding gift. So that would be that part of it.
Then I've done some things with singles and I'm just working at revising that. But it's called Soul Virgins. But it's just the whole idea of how do we have boundaries and how do we work through really having the freedom of good choices in this culture that's so sexually saturated. Then a friend is helping me and I'm starting to try to tweet. So @DrDoug-isw, all little case.
Laura Dugger: Perfect. We will link to all of those in the show notes so somebody can easily find you and connect. And if you're local here to Atlanta, you're very lucky. This is where Dr. Doug has his private practice.
So as we tie up today, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. Savvy means practical knowledge or discernment, and we would love to hear some insight from your life to inspire us with our own action item. So as our final question today, what's your Savvy Sauce?
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: My savvy sauce would be two-minute hugs. [00:38:02] I think couples are going to be really surprised when you take two minutes to melt into each other. Not a wooden perfunctory hug, but almost hearing each other's hearts, and really maybe even during that two-minute hug, whispering something really nice and affirming to your mate.
If I were going to say, what do I want? One thing to take away: Please, please, please try a two-minute hug and see what that green, purple, orange, what you're kind of combining all of those and making that something really special, but it really can make a difference. It really can make a difference.
Laura Dugger: Well, you are such a skilled therapist, you're a respectable leader, and you're my dear friend. So I'm just better from knowing you, and I'm sure our listeners are saying the same thing after hearing you today. So thank you for joining us.
Dr. Douglas Rosenau: Thank you, Laura. Thank you.
Laura Dugger: You know we love giveaways here, so head on over to our website, thesavvysauce.com, and click on our giveaway tab. [00:39:02] Today we've purchased a copy of Dr. Doug's book that he wrote with Dr. Deborah Neal titled Total Intimacy: A Guide to Loving by Color. So head on over to our website for your chance to win.
One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.
This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.
This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. [00:40:04] That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.
We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen. [00:41:04]
If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.
At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?
First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.
Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.
We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process. [00:42:04]
Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.
If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.
Welcome to The Savvy Sauce
Practical chats for intentional living
A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.
They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!
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