170. Mastering Technology so it Does Not Master You with Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd

Jan 24

Matthew 6:22 (NIV) "The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light."

**Transcription Below**

Questions and Topics We Discuss:

When you look at brain science research, what have you learned about how technology rewires our brains?
What is most helpful in restoring and repairing our brains and our relationships?
As it relates to the future, where do you think technology is headed and what should be on our radar?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd is the Director of the Flourish Center for Wellbeing in Knoxville, TN, and as the Founder and President of Flourish Wellbeing University. She has a Master's Degree specializing in Christian Counseling, and a Doctorate in Leadership. She is also an ICF (PCC) Professional Certified Coach, a National Board Certified Health and Wellness Coach, and ICF Mentor Coach. She is the co-author with her father Dr. Archibald Hart of "The Digital Invasion: How Technology is Shaping You and Your Relationships". She lives with her husband of 37 years in beautiful Knoxville, TN we they one daughter, two sons, one son-in-law, one daughter-in-law, two beautiful grand daughters and an adorable grand-son. She is passionate about coaching people to flourish and thrive in their: Spiritual Emotional, Mental, Physical, Relational, and Vocational wellbeing. Sylvia is most restored and experiences God when she is close to water, walks in nature, creates beauty and has deep coaching conversations.

Flourish Center for Well-Being

Email Dr. Frejd at DrSylvia@FlourishCenterforWellbeing.com

At The Savvy Sauce, we will only recommend resources we believe in! We also want you to be aware: We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.

The Digital Invasion by Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd

Thrilled to Death by Dr. Archibald Hart

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Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)

Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”

Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”

Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”

Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”

Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”

Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”

Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”

Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”

Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”

Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”

Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”

Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.“

Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“

Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”

**Transcription**

[00:00:00] <Music>

Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host, Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.

[00:00:18] <Music>

Laura Dugger: Leman Property Management Company has the apartment you will be able to call home with over 1,700 apartment units available in central Illinois. Visit them today at lemanproperties.com or connect with them on Facebook.

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd is my guest today. She has advanced degrees in Christian counseling and leadership, and she's passionate about coaching people to flourish and thrive in all aspects of well-being. Today we're going to zero in on digital wellbeing as we talk about a book she co-authored with her late partner, Dr. Archibald Hart, titled The Digital Invasion: How Technology is Shaping You and Your Relationships. Listen in as we discuss technology's impact on our brains and our relationships. Here's our chat.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Sylvia.

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, thanks, Laura, for having me today on your podcast. It's a joy to get to talk with you.

Laura Dugger: [00:01:26] Well, I'm excited just to hear a little bit more about your journey that led you to where you are today.

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, yes, absolutely. Well, I was actually born and raised in South Africa. My family moved to Los Angeles when I was ten for my dad, Dr. Archibald Hart, to be the dean at Fuller Seminary. He was actually one of the founders of Christian Psychology. And my mom actually was the chaplain to student wives for many years there at Fuller.

But it was through researching that topic of this digital invasion that I really developed my passion to help families to thrive in their real life and relationships. It was a very personal journey for myself as I had my own wake up call to my son's video gaming addiction. So it's been a very personal journey to help my own family to carry on what my dad said was probably his most important work, and it was his final kiss, so to speak, to the church before he left this earth. So I'm very privileged and really humbled to do this work.

So now I founded the Flourish Wellbeing University, where I'm just teaching people how to flourish in their lives. I do grief and loss intensives. I'm very passionate about that topic. I've been married for 37 years and I have three children and I'm a nana to three beautiful grandchildren. I live with that every day, watching their exposure to the digital world and how hard it is to try to protect them from all that's out there and really helping my children parent my grandkids in a healthy use of technology.

Laura Dugger: [00:03:41] Well, you are an incredible woman. And I do just want to acknowledge the loss of both your parents so close together. I just want to say I'm profoundly thankful for all of your family. You've made such an impact in God's kingdom here on earth, and especially through Christian Psychology. So I do want to say I'm so sorry for your loss.

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Thank you, Laura. I appreciate that. My parents were 87 and 89 and they lived a full life and they finished well. And I hope that we all are encouraged to do the same thing.

Laura Dugger: [00:04:17] Yes. Well, like you said, you have researched so much about our digital lives. I just want to start here. What is your theology of technology?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: My father and I really spent a lot of time coming up with what is a good theology of technology. You don't hear a lot of this necessarily from the pulpit. So we would like to give that to people, what we believe. I have a long version in my book, but basically the simple version is just that God created us in His image to be relational beings, to be in relationship with Him, to be in relationship with ourselves, in relationship with others.

We believe that this technology is a gift. It's an amazing gift, and that we are to steward it well and that we're not to become slaves to it. But it's a tool ultimately to be used for God's glory. So that's kind of, in a nutshell, just our theology of technology.

Laura Dugger: [00:05:19] Let's focus on the positives first. How do you think we can use technology to further the kingdom of God?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Laura, there are so many positive uses. And we really emphasized that when we wrote the book and when we speak on this topic, that technology is... and I've heard it said it's like a brick, right? You can use a brick to build a cathedral or you can use a brick to destroy something. So it can be used... I think of going to all the world to preach the gospel and how today, through technology, we can share the gospel.

I wish that I would do this more. And I’d encourage our listeners to think about, you know, how can we really share scriptures? I like to say post positive God stories, right, all the little ways and large ways that God's working in our lives. So I think there's so many positive ways we can use it.

We also can use it within our families to... you know, we have in our family a group text. I try to send scriptures from time to time or prayer requests or just ways to connect in our daily lives. So I think it really starts with just really praying about how God wants us to use our technology. We pray about so many things, who we should marry, where we live. This is something that our technology is just with us all the time. And we need to really be in prayer about, how is this a tool to ultimately bring God glory?

Laura Dugger: [00:06:51] I love how you bring this up, because even this week I felt the Lord speaking to me about The Savvy Sauce podcast and revealing that this is partly how He's invited me to do my part in the great commission. That even now, as I'm getting to sit and be discipled by you, Sylvia, my prayer is that this podcast and all of our episodes can also be discipling others and going out to all the nations. So technology can have a profound impact for the kingdom.

And I know sometimes people grow tired of hearing the negatives, but they're potentially so dangerous that I think it bears repeating. So what would you say are some warnings that you want to share as it relates to technology?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Yes, absolutely. I think that listeners who are listening in today to really do some self-evaluation about, are they overusing or are they addicted to their technology. So just some of the warning signs are what happens if you can't find your phone? Do you get really anxious? Are you waking up during the night at all hours of the night to check your phone?

And this is a big one. Do you look at your phone when someone's talking to you? Almost like you can't stop it, you can't help yourself because you're not in control; your device is in control. And then another big one and I saw this again was a warning sign with my son was that he used to love to play the drums, he used to love to play soccer, and he didn't want to do those real-life things anymore because the things that he was doing in his virtual life were just way more stimulating. And we'll get into more of that, you know, the brain and what's happening there.

And then a big one is just ask your family. They'll tell you, right? Mom, you're on the phone too much. Dad, get off your devices. So those are some of the warning signs. And the one I'm the most concerned about, Laura, is just this incredible increase in anxiety and depression, especially with our younger generation. So those are just some of the things we have to look out for.

Laura Dugger: [00:08:59] And what do you believe are some of the antidotes that are available? If we are answering some of those questions and maybe we're convicted right now, what are some practical ways to offer hope?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Absolutely. One of the themes that I have with flourish in real life and relationships is to balance it. Technology's not going away. The children today in schools are absolutely immersed in technology. They have their tablets. Their work is all on screens for the most part. So how do we balance that out with real life?

One of the things I did with my son was to find things that he enjoyed. He found he loved golf. So what are those things in real life that you can enjoy that can pull you out of the virtual life so that the virtual life isn't so desirable? Even with friends, right? We spend a lot of time on social media because we desire and God's created us to have connections. So just trying to balance that out with what could I be doing right now in real life? Is there something that would be a better use of my time? Calling a friend, FaceTiming with a friend. Getting out in nature.

Another really important antidote is to just try to practice good emotional intelligence. You know, the reason we have so much anxiety and depression is because we're not processing our emotions. So instead of have a painful feeling, where's my phone, to just be able to sit with that and say, what is this emotion trying to tell me right now? How can I process it and work with it?

Laura Dugger: [00:10:30] And I just want to add a little bit more to that as well, because your book I originally read when I first became a parent. And then after we had our four daughters, I wanted to revisit it in a different phase. So a few things that I've gathered. You talked about the practical application of journaling and what an impact that has on us. And then you also talk about different ways that we can recover a healthy pleasure center.

Five of those ways to restore the pleasure center, I'll just name them briefly, and people will have to read the book to find out more. But it's live a connected life, aim for sovereign joy, receive God's peace, practice gratitude, and cultivate hope and resilience. So would you want to elaborate on any of those thoughts?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, absolutely. It's just amazing how God has made our brains to help us to flourish. We see the damage that's been done in our brain system. And if we just really go with the things that God's given us, being able to journal, like you said, is huge. It takes so much of that anxiety and fear. The currency of Satan today is fear and anxiety. And being able to journal and pour our hearts out to God and take that time to put that down on paper is huge.

And being able to process those emotions so that I don't keep being distracted. Because that's what's really happening in our overuse of technology is our brains are being rewired for distraction. So being able to have that time to be still, to focus. If you're a parent out there today, that's one of the best things you could do for your children is just to get them to be still and to focus because, you know, the focused life is going to be the productive life. So, yes, I think all of those things to restore our tranquility system and our pleasure system are just huge.

Laura Dugger: [00:12:30] A follow-up question on that then. When you think of focus, would you consider that, like if they're doing an art project or something not even related to homework, if they're focused on play as they're younger, is that all intertwined?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, yes, absolutely. And I think that there's going to be enough time where they do have to be on technology beyond screen time. But the brain just thrives, Laura, in free time and playtime, and honestly, in boredom. And that seems like such a strange thing to talk about in this day and age. But you know, I shared I was born and raised in South Africa, and I had no screens at all. I didn't see television till I was almost a teenager. So I was incredibly bored.

And my dad would talk about this all the time, and how bored he was as a child in the 30s. And our brains become so creative when we're bored. So having that playtime, that fun time, that time to even just have to make up games, right, for our children is so important. So when kids say to the parents, “I'm bored.” “Good. That's great. You're bored.”

[00:13:44] <Music>

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[00:15:40] <Music>

Laura Dugger: What have you learned about how technology rewires our brains?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: So the main part to that is our overuse of technology rewires our brains through distraction. And the distracted brain becomes the addicted brain. So it's been called digital cocaine because our technology gives us this hit of dopamine in our pleasure center.

So we're just overusing our pleasure centers. The basis to that we're developing what Dr. Caroline Leaf calls the milkshake brain, where all of the multitasking—and we don't have time for all that—but multitasking has been proven to be a myth. We don't multitask, we multisequence. But we're getting this milkshake brain, right? I'm here, I'm there, I'm everywhere. So this is impacting these parts of our brain, the pleasure system in our brain. We're overloading it.

And then our learning system in the brain. A lot of that comes from the lack of sleep because our overuse of screens robs us of our sleep. And what we've learned can't go into our hypothalamus, into our long-term memory. It's impacting our tranquility system. It's amazing how God has made us with this brain that we have our own natural tranquility system.

So now we're having to use so much medication without anxiety and depression. But if we're able to really harness this natural hormone system God's given us, so we don't want to call disrupt the tranquility system, you know, a lot of us wouldn't need to be even on the medication. And then we're seeing the overuse of a technology impact our spiritual system, you know, that ability to experience God in what we talked about in Chapter 10 of our book, our God Space, that place in our brain where we experience God.

Laura Dugger: [00:17:28] Well, let's go a little bit further with some of those into the solutions. So if technology is rewiring our brains and harming our pleasure center, what is a healthy solution to restore that?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Right. You know, it starts with really respecting your brain's limitations. I think as humans, we don't want to hear that, you know, that our brains are limited. We can't multitask. We can't be in two conversations at the same time. We need to teach our kids today, you know, listening to your children. And start with ourselves, you know, to single task.

And I try to do this, you know, when I'm like, "Okay, I want to do this, I want to do that." I really have to say, Stop, focus, you know, just do one thing, do that well, and then move on to the next. Because what happens if I'm doing one thing, and then I stopped to do something else, you know, the research says it takes us 10 minutes to refocus on what I started doing. So that is really huge. Just try the single-tasking.

Then a big piece is sleep. My dad used to talk about eight to nine hours of sleep a night. Our brain goes into recovery mode during our sleep time. And our brain needs a lot of sleep. And then it needs to balance out with screen-free time each day. I know it's gonna be different for each family what that looks like. But just even as you're listening today, think about where can I have time that I just am away from screens? Whether that's out in nature. You know, research is showing it's so healing time spent in nature. Where else can you have some screen-free time in your home?

Laura Dugger: [00:19:05] I'm assuming all of this impacts our tranquility system you were talking about as well. Are there any other tangible solutions that we can do to help aid this process of healing as well?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Right. The main part of our tranquility system is when we're, like I was saying, with the digital cocaine, it keeps our stress levels high because the cortisol is up because I'm waiting for that next text or I'm waiting for that next post. So our stress hormones are being disrupted and they're staying so high. So that's, again, why we're seeing stress leads to anxiety, anxiety leads us to depression.

So when we can do things too lower that stress hormone. And there's a lot of great ways to do that. There's an app out there called Calm. You know, what can you do to just, whether it's through breathing, whether it's through just putting the phone down, and like I said, getting out in nature to try and lower that stress? Because that is really one of the main reasons why our overuse of technology is so damaging to our brains and our bodies is that high level of stress.

So whether that's through breathing, whether it's through exercise, what can you do to be very aware of your stress hormones response? And tuning into your body? What is your body experiencing right now? How can you calm that?

Laura Dugger: [00:20:26] A lot of this is covered on pages 62 to 73 of your book, if somebody's following along or wants to research more. But one of my takeaways from that section was just how amazing it was that breaks and sleep and face-to-face connection were repeated in the repair systems, and just how powerful those are. And the one other amazing takeaway just how God designed us is that practicing spiritual disciplines actually heals our brain. So would you want to say anything else about healing the spiritual system of our brain?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Well, sure. You know, that was something as we were writing the book that, you know, you read all the bad news, right? And it was like, Well, what is the solution? What can help us? So it was really through Dr. Thompson's work, that neuro theology that he was talking about, how silence and solitude really helps to heal our brains.

So we really made this connection that if our overuse of technology is rewiring our brain for distraction, then it was really through the spiritual discipline of silence and solitude that our brains are able to heal. So that was a huge aha for us in reading that. So to just think about how are you balancing that each day. Are you getting time to be... you know, the Bible says in Psalm 46:10, "Be still and know that I'm God." He doesn't say, run around and do 10 things and you'll know I'm God.

Our brain, again, thrives in stillness and quiet. And if you look around your world today, we get so little of it. So the antidote really is right there for us. It's just going to take some self-management and some discipline right, to have that and to help your children to be still and not to always be entertained. My dad wrote the book, Thrilled to Death, and it was all about we're entertaining ourselves to death, where our children are being entertained to death. That really is our antidote.

Laura Dugger: [00:22:30] That is another profound book that made such an impact. I would highly recommend that one as well. But one more part that you talk about is the attachment system. I think of this, in general, is relationships, because attachment is such a large part. So could you explain attachment a little bit further, and then share how technology is impacting our relationships?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Absolutely. This is such an important piece for us to grasp. God, again, He's created us to be in relationship, to be attached to Him, to have attachments with others. So to have healthy attachments, with our spouse, with our children, with friends, we need to feel safe, we need to feel seen, and we need to feel heard. That's really what is at the core of attachment theory or having attachment.

So how our technology robs us of that is that when we're constantly looking down at screens, when we're constantly distracted with our phones, those that we love are not going to feel seen and heard, right? I like to say, your children and your loved ones, they need your eyeballs. And that's really what we're fighting for.

I heard one tech creator say, you know, what we really want is your eyeballs, right? They're fighting to make these devices addicted to get our eyeballs. So that's what our loved ones need. To be present to those people right in front of us, not to have... it's actually a term called absent presence. And that's when you're in the same room with someone but you're actually with somebody else on a screen.

I really believe it's the greatest gift that we can give those that we love, the gift of our presence. I know as a Nana to three little grandchildren, that's one gift that I've promised them, you know, to form those healthy attachments with them is that they have the gift of my presence. And I'm very aware when I'm with them to put my phone down and to turn the TV off and to really give them that.

I think that as far as our attachment to God, that's what He wants us to be is to be attached to Him. But we have many... what I call false attachments. Those give us pleasure, right? They can be online shopping, social media, just surfing websites that can feel like, you know, they give us some kind of pleasure. But they're really false attachments.

We need to really work on... we're created for union with the Father, the Son, and the Spirit, right? The union. God wants us to keep union with Him, and then to be attached to those that we love. And I've heard stories and this has happened to me too, so not judging here. But you know, stories of kids saying, "I kicked the ball for the very first time, I looked up in the stands, and my dad was looking down at his phone. He missed it." That is going to impact how kids feel seen and feel heard and feel valued.

Laura Dugger: [00:25:25] Wow, that is so powerful, and so memorable, that our loved ones need our eyeballs. It makes me think of Matthew 6:22 that says, the eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are healthy, your whole body will be full of light. So that is so good and memorable. Thank you. They need our eyeballs. And with attachment that really begins with the parent-child relationship, right, and sets that child on a different trajectory of how they are likely going to attach to others, including the Lord?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, absolutely. You know, as I do work as a counselor and as a coach, as people come in, and sit with me, that is absolutely. If a parent was distant and aloof, that's how they see God. And when kids look at us, you know, we are the face of God to our children. And it's very sobering. And it's almost overwhelming.

I would say to my kids all the time, you know, I'm not perfect, I'm not going to reflect Jesus perfectly to you. But we need to really see that. The pleasure that we get from being on our devices sometimes is just... we need to be honest with ourselves, right? That it's overwhelming and it's a big hole.

But we have this little time, this little amount of time to be with our kids. Again, just getting back to that discipline of trying to get off the phone, trying to be there for them, because it will impact that child's life, how they see God, how they do relationships, whether they have an anxious attachment or an avoidant attachment, because there's different attachment styles. So that's just one little step you could take is just be there, be available, look in their eyes, and make them feel seen, and valued, and heard.

Laura Dugger: [00:27:13] I think that's such a balanced response. You're right, we cannot be perfect to our children, we will not be Jesus to them. And yet, there is a humbling reality and responsibility that we have. But I also love how you said, as a Nana, you're wanting to attach to your grandchildren. And it makes me think there are so many key players that also pour into our children to have that secure attachment.

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Definitely. You hear stories all the time of teachers, of Sunday school teachers and neighbors and grandparents who have a huge, huge impact. So I encourage anyone that's in my stage of life to grandparents to... you know, sometimes we're even more available. Maybe because we're older and we learned, hopefully, a few things, maybe a little bit wiser. But just to think about how you can help those in your life to form healthy attachments.

[00:28:13] <Music>

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[00:29:03] <Music>

Laura Dugger: Overall, what would you say is the most helpful piece in restoring and repairing our brains and our relationships?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: That's a really good question. I think for me, having some kind of a plan, you know, some steps to take. I do have a digital wellness plan that my dad and I came up with. And I think if I can share some of those just practical ways.

I think it starts by just first of all trying to limit your exposure. Again, technology's not going away. We've seen in the last year and a half where you've been immersed way more than we were before. But just to be selective. Be a discriminant user.

One of the things I did was I removed my newsfeed from my phone. And that's just been really freeing to not just feel constantly a slave to the ping and the ding of what's happening. So just think of ways that you can even just limit some of your exposure for your own life, with your children.

And then try to create some space where technology doesn't go. And that may just be in small ways. Like sacred space in the morning where no phones are. Maybe just even one of the things I did notice sounds so small, but the baby steps is just when I go to the bathroom. You know, don't take your phone with you. Just have a place where your phone doesn't have to go everywhere with you.

And then to face your feelings. To really ask, why am I spending so much time in technology? What are those painful feelings I'm trying to self-soothe or to medicate? And then keep a journal of those feelings as we talked about before. And then finding beauty to balance the brokenness. I just love that. You know, there's so much brokenness in even our world, in that we get thrown at us through the news feeds and through social media.

And what is that beauty? You know, whether that's listening to encouraging podcasts, like hopefully, you're doing today, beautiful music, getting out in nature. Really God has given us so much beauty to balance the brokenness that's out there.

And then one that I think is really, really important. That is to go deep in this shallow world. I loved Mr. Rogers, he said, in a world that's fast and shallow, we need slow and deep. I think that is really, so much the antidote, and the answer to all of this is, how do we go slow and how do we go deep in a world that is so fast and shallow?

Laura Dugger: [00:31:38] Oh, wow, that is good. And it ties in. I'm going to quote you from page 156, where you write, "Our digital life serves us best when it is balanced by its opposite, namely, our unplugged life." That just makes me think when we are unplugged, that often will lead to conversations and conversations make up relationships.

Dr.Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, absolutely. I like to call myself the conversation doctor, because that's really what we're trying to reclaim in all of this is conversations. Again, conversations with God, conversations with ourselves, conversations with others, and especially, with our loved ones. It's through conversations that we learn how to be a human being, and it's how we get to know God.

So I like to say that in your home, there should be places that are digital-free zones where conversation can flow freely. And that's your kitchen, your dining room, and your car. If you can make all those places digital-free so you can really have conversations. That's how children develop emotional intelligence. Right? It's through conversations.

"So, really, how was school today?" "Oh, well, Sammy was mean to me." "Oh, how did that make you feel? What do you think's going on with Sammy?" As we have those conversations, that's how our children are learning about life. My mother used to say, In dialogue, our thoughts are clarified. We can say what we're feeling, we can have that back and forth dialogue. So trying to reclaim conversation is a big piece of what I'm doing.

Again, another baby step for you as a family, just the dining room table and just say, we're gonna have a conversation. And I know how it goes. I don't want to talk. How are you doing? Fine. I'm fine, Mom. I'm fine. But that's really what our kids need, and what our loved ones need is conversations.

Laura Dugger: [00:33:34] Yes to that. Absolutely. Healthy boundaries can provide so much freedom in our lives in various areas. But when we specifically look at digital limits that eventually can lead to greater freedom, what are some of the most beneficial boundaries you recommend we establish for ourselves and for our children?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Sure. I'll just start through the age range. You know, for a toddler, they're saying too, this is the experts saying, to limit exposure to really no more than one hour a day of screen time, trying to make that educational programming. Sit with your child, interact with them, so they don't just zone out for an hour. To say, "Oh, what was happening with Daniel the tiger?" "He looks sad." "What do you think about that? Do you get sad?" So if you can have that interaction, it can just really be a lot more beneficial.

Then for children, they're saying no more than two hours of screen time. What I like to say is it's very hard to be legalistic about that. Set the timer and you know, how much was it? Was three minutes over or three minutes under. But to ask yourself this question: is there something my child should be doing that the screen time is preventing?

I really liked that. Because you know, maybe they should be napping, maybe they should be playing, having playtime with a friend. Maybe they should be outside. So that's really how we balance our real life and our virtual life is, is there something that this is preventing?

And then for teenagers, and I know this is controversial, but you know, to try not give a smartphone until the age of 13. That is what all the tech experts say, including Gates and Steve Jobs did not let their children have phones. So I figure if they created them, they must know something that we don't. Those are really good boundaries. Make sure you have your kids' passwords, that they sign a digital pledge, they know what's expected of them. No cell phones in the bedrooms. That's when most destructive behavior happens in middle of the night with texting, with kids sexting.

Have a charging station that's out, you know, where everyone can charge their phone, including parents. Because this is just not about digital wellness for kids, we need to be modeling this.

Then for us adults, try not to check your phone while you're getting ready for bed. Have about an hour of screen-free time to really get some good sleep. Don't check your phone first thing when you get up. I'd like to say let God get your first view, you know, talk to Him, get the Scripture before you get all the downloads from the day before.

And the most important part to all of this, I think as parents, as Christians, is just try to model digital wellness yourself saying more is caught than taught. If you have a good control, and you're modeling good digital habits, those will be caught.

Laura Dugger: [00:36:20] I want to go even deeper into the teenagers and technology because we've had some families reach out and just say, "This is a new place for us. We have given our children smartphones because we want to teach them while they're in our home how to steward this well. So do you have any recommendations for a balanced approach of wise ways that parents can parent their teens through this season of getting their smartphone and interacting with technology more?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Yes, absolutely. Well, Laura, you know, I spent four years working at a university and I would work with students on their digital wellness. So I want to say to parents of teenagers, yes, it's very wise to let them have access to their phones. I even say that their senior year, maybe even let them have their phone in the room. Because the point is they go off to college, and then suddenly, it's total freedom. So they need to sort of be released to know how to do that.

Most important thing is really to have conversations. I had a lot of college students say to me, "My parents didn't teach me how to use my digital devices." Well, I have many kids say that's how they got into internet pornography. "My parents didn't talk about sex, so I was curious. And I just started googling."

I had many kids tell me, young people tell me that they wanted to talk with their parents, but when they go into the rooms, their parents were all distracted on their devices. So they would just go back to the room and text with friends. So I think it's really important in those high school years that you're available. Again, the eyeball analogy: Be there when your child wants to talk, especially at nighttime. That's when kids' spirits seem to really be open. And that's when we're the most tired, and we don't want to talk. Be available to them to have those conversations and say, If you have any questions, if you come to me, there's no subject that's off limits. So you're available for them.

And then having the passwords and letting them know there is going to be some accountability. You know, what you do post or what you put out there, you know, you are going to have accountability, not in a mean way or strict way, but in a "I want to help you. And I want to help you to thrive when you do go off to college, and you do launch from this home".

So the relationship is everything. It's out of the strength of our attachment and our relationship that we create the rules and the boundaries. So really work on the relationship. Even after listening to this podcast, you know, say this is what I learned today, and I want to help you to not have a distracted brain. I want to help you to have some good boundaries with your digital use. I think that's really the answer.

Laura Dugger: [00:38:56] I think my takeaway when I have a quick thought, when interacting with our kids, I'm going to try and remember eyeballs in conversation, to prioritize those in the relationship. I want to quote you again on page 31, where you and your dad write, "Our findings confirmed our worst fear. Digital engagement seems to be breaking down their sense of unity as a family." So, Sylvia, how can we redeem what technology has stolen from our family?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Yes, getting back to the purpose of our technology, you know, technology was created to make our lives easier and more productive. That's really what it's about. It's funny how it ends up making our lives harder and less productive. But if we get back to the intended design and use of that and to think putting technology in its place in your home, where does it belong?

And again, it's going to be different for each family. I've talked with families who have very little screen very few screens and tech families and have a lot. So starting by just praying. What is our family mission statement? How are we going to use technology in this home? And how do we want to use it in a way that's redemptive.

So again, using it, to share family devotionals, to share scriptures, to encourage your kids to post positive things about their classmates. I had people tell me that college recruiters that they look to see who are the kids that are making positive comments about fellow students are way to go, you hit a home run, a great job. So just being a really positive force.

And then again, having as many face-to-face conversations as a family as you can, and breaking up that conversation deficit. You know, FaceTiming with relatives. I live with my grandchildren now at the same time, but I did it for a while, and I loved being able to FaceTime. So being able to connect them with other family members, maybe they don't get to see all the time.

And then really sitting down and praying as a family. How do you think God wants us to use this technology? And then coming up with your own family digital wellness plan. It is amazing when you let your kids take ownership of it. They may even be a little stricter than you thought, you know. But be ready that when they say, "Mom, you're on the phone too much," or "Dad, you're on your devices too much" to not be defensive, and "no, I'm not." But to be able to say, "You know, you're right, and we can do this together."

So the beauty of this is I think it can be very redemptive in bringing families closer together and coming together to come up with a digital wellness plan.

Laura Dugger: [00:41:32] And I'm wondering, Sylvia, if that's part of your story. So just to turn it a little bit more personal now, would you be open to sharing a little bit more of your family's journey through your son's struggle with video gaming addiction?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, absolutely. It really started with sitting down with him and with my other two children as well, and just really sharing how much I loved him and how much I was his biggest fan, biggest supporter, and how I wanted to see her thrive in his real life. Then I started sharing education. So it wasn't just, you know, This is what I think or feel. This is what the research is telling us. And really stepping them through the reality of what... you know, I shared with him what was happening to his brain and he's very, very smart.

If you have children today that are addicted to video gaming, to realize that the high-risk is a very intelligent child who's a little more introverted. And that's who he was. So really sharing that, you know, that you are more introverted. And finding, you know, what are things you enjoy in real life? AAnd encouraging him in that and giving him opportunities to join the golf team, to find ways to connect with other people. So I actually taught him a lot of emotional intelligence, because my other two are very high in emotional intelligence. He's higher in IQ.

So really just sharing that and keeping it about the heart relationship of how much I love him, and I want to see him thrive. And entering his world. You know, I would sit and watch him play the game and say, "What is about this that you love?" And trying to understand rather than just "stop that. That's not good for you." You know, "Help me understand why do you enjoy this? And what is it that you can do in real life that would give you the same sense of mastery, and accomplishment?"

Laura Dugger: [00:43:31] Sylvia, where is your son now on his journey of recovery?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Oh, yes, yes, absolutely. He graduated from college. So that was a big plus. I mean, I would be honest in saying that I think it's still something that he's really drawn to. And I think like he says, to me, "Mom, our generation is just going to video games for the rest of our lives. That's what we do. You guys would watch TV, we videogame."

So I think it's going to still be an ongoing challenge for him. I wouldn't say the ending is, you know, he gave up into gaming, and everything's great. I think it's still a challenge for him. But I've seen a definite maturing, and an ability to balance it out with his real life.

I think that's important, too. It's not like AA where, well, you just don't ever touch alcohol again. With these types of addictions, it's difficult, because you're going to be in technology the rest of your life. You can't just, for most of us, throw it away. So it's definitely an ongoing challenge, I think, for him. But I would say the key piece was just the relationship of him knowing that I love him and I'm supporting him, encouraging him, and his awareness of what's going on. And the education he's received on the topic has really been helpful.

Laura Dugger: [00:44:47] Well, thank you. That's incredibly helpful to hear the reality and the picture of real-life struggle with this and maturing and managing it. And for others who are maybe in the midst of a struggle with a digital addiction, what's your vision maybe 10 years from now, for those who learn to master this area of their life compared to those who eventually will become mastered by it?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Well, I tell people all the time, if you master your technology instead of it mastering you, you really will be a cut above your peers. I would say that to the college students that I would teach. If you're able to master it and really have a focus brain single task, you're going to have better emotional intelligence, which is your self-awareness. If you're able to get off your phone and tune into what you're feeling and journal that, you're going to have better self-management, because our overuse of technology shuts down our prefrontal cortex, and that's the executive management part of our brain.

So you're going to be able to self-manage better. You're going to have a better relationship management. You'll have deeper relationships with God. You're going to be able to hear from God because you're still and you're quiet and you can hear from Him. Definitely, you know, the deeper relationship with your family and friends. And not only to talk to God, but really being a listener and being able to hear God's voice, it's just such an important part of our relationship with God.

And I think, for those who, unfortunately, are going to be mastered by it, I guess just we'll look at the opposite of that. That they're going to really struggle and not have good EQ. And resources is showing how important that emotional intelligence is now for success, people with high EQ make more money, they have more friends, they have a better quality of life.

Your relationships are not going to be as deep because it does take that attachment. They need your eyeballs. And if they don't have your eyeballs, you're not going to have those close attachments. And you're going to honestly just the addicted brain... your brain loves novelty. You're going to probably get into other addictions, as well. Because, you know, if you're going to become pleasure-seeker, or as my dad talked about becoming a hedonic, where you don't find pleasure in anything. So, you know, I hate to paint such a grim picture but this really is serious, and it's the truth.

Laura Dugger: [00:47:11] That is serious. And I do appreciate you even giving practical steps prior in this conversation of actionable ways that people can start working on their own healing journey. And as it relates to the future, where do you think technology is headed and what should be on our radar?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: I love talking about future things. It's important to think as Christians for us to be aware of what technology is being created. And I think in some ways, we're probably not as savvy in that topic as we should be. So technology's really moving from external to internal. So we've had our smartphones, now we have our watches we wear, and now Google's working on an implant to implant us with a chip.

So basically the goal is that at nighttime, we would be able to download everything directly into our brains. They also, of course, have Google Glass you've probably heard of, where you'll just wear the glasses, and then you know, projects the screen in front of you. So you can have the internet with you wherever you go.

We have what's called the singularity, with Ray Kurtzweil. Google is paying him millions and millions of dollars to create what's called singularity. If you're interested, you can Google it. But it's basically where we will merge humanity and technology. He says that it will be a future of unparalleled human-machine synthesis.

So, again, as Christians, we need to know about this. It's called transhumanism, where the goal is that they say humans are limited and we need to evolve. So our next level of evolving is to become part robot, part human. And the goal of transhumanism is really to live forever, which if we see where that's coming from, that God hasn't created us to live forever here on earth.

So I think it's important for us as Christians to know about that, to also be aware of what's being created in relationship robots. Many people want to be in relationship with a robot instead of a human. We see that even in Japan, the marriage rate is going away down. And a lot of that is because real life can't compete with a virtual life. So the more immersed we are in the virtual world, the less desirable the real world becomes to us.

And we see that we haven't really gotten to touch on that with internet pornography, that many people can't even have real-life sexual relationships because what they get through the digital images is so much greater than real life. So just to be aware of that as Christians, you know, what is happening out there and what honestly in the next 20 or 30 years our children are going to be facing.

Laura Dugger: [00:49:59] Wow, that is very sobering to hear. And even that last example of pornography, that maybe that intimacy or connection that they're actually longing for can never be met in that way, because God didn't design it that way. And it does sabotage the real-life relationship then. A few things then with this, what do you challenge us to do with this information? And how are you aware of all of these future trends?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Well, you know, I think the challenge to us as Christians starts with something my dad talked about all the time. And that is we need to respect our limitations. You know, the limitations of our bodies, our brains. We're not meant to live forever on this earth. We're created to be in a relationship with God, an intimate love relationship with God, with ourselves, that self-awareness with other human beings. It's demanding, it's messy. And that's why a lot of people say they want to be in relationship with robots, they don't make demands of them.

Real life is demanding, real relationships are messy. But this is what God uses to refine us really and to transform us into His image. So we need to protect those establishments, protect our God's space, that place in our brain where we experience God.

You know, scientists are telling us that our brains could be rewired to a place where we won't be able to even experience God. I think in Psalm 139:13, it says, "You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together and my mother's womb. Your workmanship is marvelous, how well I know it." So we need to protect this amazing workmanship, those delicate parts of our brain of our God's space, and to see what's happening with and fight that. You know, relationships with robots, whatever the world is saying, to know that God has us to be in real-life relationships, and to be in real life as much as possible.

Laura Dugger: [00:52:03] I think that's a great challenge to end on. One of the benefits of technology is that we can still learn more from you even after this chat, regardless of where we live in the world. So Sylvia, where can we find you oline?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Sure. Well, I have the flourishwellbeinguniversity.com. You can go there, or you can email me at drsylvia@flourishwellbeinguniversity.com.

Laura Dugger: Wonderful. We will provide those links in the show notes for today's episode. And you know we're called The Savvy Sauce because savvy is synonymous with practical knowledge. So as my final question for you today, what is your savvy sauce?

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Yes, I love that. Well, my savvy sauce relates to what I shared about protecting my God's space in my brain. And that is I take 10 to 15 minutes each day to practice silence and solitude with God. I just get in a quiet place and just be with Him. No agenda, just being open to Him, finding my centeredness and my peace in that place.

And then after the time's over, as I go through my day, any time crisis arise or anxiety comes to me or the storms of life, I just go back to that place, Laura, that place of stillness and quiet. And that really helps me to stay centered, to stay grounded in a very uncentered ungrounded world. So I hope that your listeners will consider that, to take some time to do that each day.

Laura Dugger: Yes, well, thank you for living out these principles that you've recommended to us today. You're just such a great role model for us to follow as we all seek to steward technology well, and ultimately glorify God in the process. So thank you for sharing all of that with us today. And thank you for being my guest.

Dr. Sylvia Hart Frejd: Well, thank you, Laura, for having me. It was really a privilege.

Laura Dugger: [00:54:05] Ever since launching this podcast in 2018, our team has tried to release at least one episode every Monday morning. In addition, we also launched a secret bonus episode for paying patrons on the first of every month. But in 2022, we're changing things up a bit. We will continue to release the bonus episode for paying patrons. But on those weeks when it's the first of the month, that will be the only episode going live. Which means next week on Monday, there will not be a brand new episode available for the general public.

If you benefited from any messages on The Savvy Sauce, we would encourage you to support our work through joining Patreon. You can go to thesavvysauce.com, click on the "Patreon" tab, click "join Patreon here", and then follow the prompts so that you can have access to all these bonus episodes and downloadable scripture cards. We hope you join us there. Otherwise, we'll see you back here in two weeks.

One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners and God is perfect and holy, so He cannot be in the presence of sin. Therefore, we're separated from Him.

This means there's absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a savior. But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute.

This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news. Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus.

We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us. Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

So would you pray with me now? Heavenly, Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change their lives now for eternity. In Jesus name, we pray, amen.

[00:56:53] If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him, you get the opportunity to live your life for Him.

At this podcast, we are called Savvy for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you're ready to get started?

First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision my parents took me to Barnes and Noble to get the Quest NIV Bible and I love it. Start by reading the book of John.

Get connected locally, which basically means just tell someone who is part of the church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.

We want to celebrate with you too. So feel free to leave a comment for us if you made a decision for Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.

Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.

If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.

Welcome to The Savvy Sauce

Practical chats for intentional living

A faith-based podcast and resources to help you grow closer to Jesus and others. Expect encouragement, surprises, and hope here. Each episode offers lively interviews with fascinating guests such as therapists, authors, non-profit founders, and business leaders.

They share their best practices and savvy tips we can replicate to make our daily life and relationships more enjoyable!